Chris: So, firstly a little product placement, that's important.

Swiss: Oh, are you sponsored by them?

Chris: No, not yet.

Swiss: Oh, okay. So, it’s in progress…

Chris: Could you please hold this into the camera while drinking? So one can see that?

Swiss: What is this, cola, zero sugar and guarana?

Chris: Yes, and guarana.

Swiss: Ey, how cool is that. *smacks* sorry that I …

Chris: Can I cut that out?

Swiss: That’s....difficult (means he doesn’t like it). Don't you find it difficult?

Chris: No, I think it's great.

Swiss: Mhm. That's true. The second sip is much better.

Chris: Let's put this on the ground because of the micro here.

Swiss: Yeah, concerning taste....

Chris: Yes, very briefly, I don't know exactly, with us it was the record company that said I should do a song with you and sit here, was it with you the social welfare office or management or...?

Swiss: That's the same thing. We have a social office management deal, a whole new thing.

Chris: Mhm. Integration or something? Integration Plus?

Swiss: Yeah, not integration, I'd rather call it - uhm- what do you call it? In classes, too, where people are mixed a little bit?

Chris: Castes.

Swiss: Nah, not castes. For school classes.

Chris: Ah yes yes. Yes.

Swiss: Not integration ...

Chris: Dual...

Swiss: Inclusion!

Chris: Inclusion! Oh yes, yes.

Swiss: Inclusion. Right, yes.

Chris: Okay. Yes. I'm not up for it now, I wasn't really up for the song either, and I hope that also shows in the video.

Swiss: Are you the singer? Because, we haven't seen each other at all somehow.

Chris: No, I am the brother.... Oh yeah, that's right, we were doing it all in front of greenscreens ...

Swiss: We have done the whole thing nicely separated.

Chris: Yes, exactly. Well, I don't know if you've seen "Lord of the Rings", but there you have this hobbit world and the magicians, they are also in different sizes...

Swiss: Right. And you are the magicians...?

Chris: Right. Because we are tall and you are not so tall, we had to ...

Swiss: We are a little smaller, that's true.

Chris: ...the different worlds...

Swiss: I'm curious how you can somehow fix this difference in size later on in your badass program so that we look the same height. That is very important to me.

Chris: That's what the record company does, they fix it. We got nothing to do with it.

Swiss: The ones from the record company.

Chris: Right.

 Swiss: Oh man... This is really 80s. 

Chris: Yeah, that's how it is.

Swiss: Rock band shit, like this. The record company, bro.

Chris: Yes.

Swiss: The (social) office! That is much ... much more progressive, man! Nowadays you make music with the office.

Chris: Yes.

Swiss: Well, whatever. Good.

Chris: No, but now…

Swiss: Cool hoodies by the way.

Chris: I think so too.

Swiss: One check.

Chris: Talking about product placement: *shows the hoodie’s print*

Swiss: I think that's really nice, this ...this gold print, I have to say, it always blew me away.

Chris: But those are only five colours, right?

Swiss: Yes.

Chris: These somehow...

Swiss: I don't care. As long as it looks good, Chris, you know, I'm also happy with five colours. And if there’s only five questions now, I'm satisfied too.

Chris: Well, actually there are only three with schwarz-tot-gold.

Swiss: That's right.

Chris: No, but I'm glad that we're here now ... well, the video is released on Saturday or Sunday, which means that we have to pretend that it's Saturday or Sunday and say "The video was released yesterday".

Swiss: Yes.

Chris: As it's live.

Swiss: The video is well received.

Chris: Yes, I think so too.

Swiss: Badass, yeah.

Chris: I liked the first comments.

Swiss: I didn't think that we would somehow be able to get into the Billboard Charts with it right now. So I don't care either, because I don't get any more money for it from the office, I don't know, with your record company, are you paid according to success or is it like that, too…?

Chris: Nope, they pay us in advance. Just a lump sum.

Swiss: On suspicion.

Chris: Yes. No, we are employed.

Swiss: Oh, you are employed by a record company!

Chris: Including health insurance.

Swiss: Yes, all the communication during the progress showed that a little bit.

Chris: Yes. Concerning rock'n'roll and stuff. This is what we do.

Swiss: Yes. I think that's good, I think it's very, very good.

Chris: No, but we really had... well, for you out there - we're still in the middle of the crime thriller of the completion, actually we wanted to finish the video... it's Friday today - no, sorry, it's Thursday today - and we wanted to finish the video a week ago, I think - but when you're doing something with two bands, twenty people, and two video teams, it's not necessarily that shared work is half the work, but it's actually a lot to do.

Swiss: I also have to admit that one can tell a little bit - so let's be serious - that you are also a band - and it's exactly the same with us - that you are a band that is somehow used to hustle. You know, doing it all yourself, and....

Chris: Yes and also to decide everything and so on.

Swiss: Right. And there are also a lot of bands - we also know some examples - who are just really happy when things go like … "Here is your video, this and that will be shot and that's how it will look like and go ahead, put this on and so on.” Yeah cool. And one can tell that you have your own ideas how things should look like and it is the same with us. And that sometimes makes it exhausting, but I think it's also important and at the end of the day ... so what we're getting upset about right now, that's ... these are probably things that...

Chris: These are just things that WE still see.

Swiss: Yes, these pawns who will watch it...

Chris: So actually those, who are watching this now.

Swiss: From ours and your circles.... They won’t notice that. You can have a potato at ??? *inaudible*

 

(5:10)

Chris: But the thing is, it's not about problems between us, that you want this and we want that, but it's just the way it is, when bands do everything themselves, they are used to it, they have their own special ideas, it's very difficult to find that for everyone. But if there are two bands meeting now, with their special ideas, it's probably even a bit harder.

Swiss: Yes. And of course you have to say that we had a little bit to do with the way, with the people we somehow got and so on, because we hadn't worked with them yet or we worked with some of them, you with the others, so that's it - no! So it was kind of like this - sometimes you didn't know what you were getting into, it was a bit like a magic bag, and that's why I think, yes, that... but it was very constructive and now at the end... of course it was also very expensive, now vacation is cancelled for me, the office said "No, fuck it".

Chris: I can't go to Sylt next week either because ... that's all gone to waste.

Swiss: You have a house there, I thought.

Chris: *shows two fingers*

Swiss: Two houses, yes.

Chris: But I had to... well, not two anymore, only one now.

Swiss: Sell because of the video?

Chris: Yes because of the video…

Swiss: Yes? Yes. Yes.

Chris: No but seriously, the most “sporty” thing for me was actually the factor "time", because... I don't know, when did we write the song? Five weeks or something ago? Or six?

Swiss: Right. *to the camera* Well, you have to know, Chris had the idea. Last year, before our record, you hit on me at some point, said "Hey, let's do it next year, if we have time sometime, I have an idea for a song, Schwarz-tot-gold", and we didn't know exactly yet in which direction it should go - so it should be critical, but you didn't know yet how the thing should sound somehow.... And then I called you, it occurred to me.

Chris: Then you said: "What is it now, shall we go for it?”

Swiss: Shall we do that? - I have time.

Chris: Yeah, like: If not now - then when?

Swiss: Yes, exactly. There are no festivals, there is no tour, and the album is done.

Chris: But I find it interesting when you say "critical", how do you define "critical". In which context is the song critical for you?

Swiss: Well, well...

Chris: So what's going to be for you...? I mean, everybody sees it, everybody hears it, but what are the points for you where you say, that it's important to you, what feelings is the song supposed to trigger.

 

(7:13)

Swiss: Ah, we just talked about it. I actually always ... I find it difficult to explain music and explain art in this way. Of course, basically, I think that in principle, you should also consider yourself a human being, I would say, in this cultural area.  I think that when you say I'm German, somehow you have to critically question the structure in which you live and why we're doing so well and why elsewhere in the world people aren't doing so well and whether that's possibly related?

And I think that the song is very critical and does that but - and that was important to us from the beginning - doesn't do it in such a disgustingly instructive way, so that's why the song won't be - I promise you, there will also be people who are really upset about the song…

Chris: Of course, probably more than half of them.

Swiss: They'll get upset about the song and say "You can't do that, why did you...” and "You can't put Germany on a par with such a gang, there!" But I think you can do that in a certain way and I think good songs actually have to do that. I personally always find myself, when I’m listening to songs where I have the feeling that I'm being taught, or someone is teaching me something, preaching music like that, that really turns me off.

Chris: For me it was important, to say, "If not now, then when". I wasn't necessarily concerned with "Just no concerts, Corona and all that", but rather with the fact that at the moment, when I look at it, every second Saturday people are going out on the streets, corona deniers, opponents of vaccinations, any other swearers, all the "Sieg Heil" trainees there ... "Sieg Heil practitioners" - I thought that was a great word.

Swiss: Sieg Heil Practitioners?

Chris: The Sieg Heil Practitioners, not Sieg Heil trainees - I thought …

Swiss: …but “trainees” sounds cool, too, because they also do - in a certain way they all do their internship there.

Chris: Nah, what was important to me was when I thought, "Hey. People go out on the streets and get upset about things where there are problems, which have been growing for 30 years, or 50 years, they've really tried hard to get this big and they deserve to be noticed. And that's what the song is for me, so, what we're talking about in the song for me is when I say “Hey, we also have real problems here that have to be talked about.”

Swiss: Yes, especially when you see that Moria is burning, you just - now completely independent of what happens outside of Europe - you are looking at Europe and there are people everywhere who just live like ... like they don't – like it is not worthy of the idea  “Europe” and so, you know. And - of course it's related to the whole world anyway, but I just believe, on the one hand, that you should bring the problems we really have into perspective, but on the other hand I also believe that it's of course ... Well, I think it's good, in a certain way, when people go out in the streets, you know? Well, I think so - and that's what Corona does at the end of the day, it's like this, we live in a system, and on many levels it gets jammed up, and then something like Corona happens, and people just start shaking things up a bit. And I do believe that this - well, I'm doing that in my life right now - you will probably feel the same way - well, Corona comes and you notice that certain things you've done don't go on like this.

Chris: Yeah, they don't work like that anymore.

Swiss: For example - and I think that's just super somehow... the other day I think I saw a report on RTL or something ... Sorry - about these aqua farms where salmon is bred and what disgusting shit it is and then I saw that there are now campaigns on several TV stations about sustainability and environmental protection and I have a feeling, that our collective consciousness of us as human beings is already changing a little bit right now, and that there's something good about that, and we probably won't realize that for a few more years, and of course you always have the crazy ones saying "This is a big …" - I don't believe that this is a big plan. I think things happen, so ...

Chris: I think those who say that - sorry, my phone is on - well, I think those who say "This is a big plan" - they have a lot of faith in politics. Those who have been saying "Politicians can't do anything" in social networks for years - now they think that suddenly worldwide, 20 countries plan such a thing together and nobody gets it - without whistle-blowers? All of a sudden it works...? I find that pretty hard. 

Swiss: No, it's just... I think it's also simply because of the human being, that people can't accept that there are certain things that just happen, we can't change them, you know, when the Tsunami happened in 2005 or something...

Chris: What could you do about it?

Swiss: That's nature, so you know, we've somehow already pruned nature in all possible ways and tried to keep it as small as possible, but that just doesn't work everywhere and... I mean, people always need these explanatory patterns. I mean, back then, in the past, in times of the plague, it was ..."'a conspiracy of the Jews" - that's what people did - so you know, many people said that and so on and so on, and I think that people are just like that, that they always need someone to blame for something that we all can't change. And I'm not a huge fan of German politics or anything, but I wouldn't have known how to do it differently - so you know, if I was in that position - how would I have done it differently? No idea.

Chris: But how far do you see ... I mean, schwarz-tot-gold is of course a total pun about Germany, sure, but for me, as I think about it, the song is not only about Germany. It's actually more of a global problem. Of course you try to put your own house in order and talk about the things you are closest to - I know even less about other countries than about our own politics, but...

Swiss: I think it's all about a kind of power elite, of course, so I think the term "those up there" is always crap...

Chris: Yes.

Swiss: ...but of course there definitely is a very elitist circle of decision-makers in the world, I would say, or a small elite that has an influence that others don't have, and who naturally pass the ball on to each other. So, if you look at the war in Iraq, for example ... without the conspiracy theories, but like this - planes somehow fly into the Twin Towers and then - it was absolutely clear that Saddam had nothing to do with it and that there were no chemical weapons and there was a lot of oil - and then they said "Okay, Saddam Hussein didn't apologize for something or didn't give condolences - and went in there and who gets the order for all the new weapons that are produced? Halliburton, you know, the biggest gun producer, where I think Dick Cheney had some kind of connection with or something, you know? And those are the kind of things where I think, yeah, there's these balls that certain people are getting. And it's not a coincidence that when a delegation of politicians flies somewhere, there are also 20 people from the business world there. And that's how deals are made. To a certain extent I understand this, but to a certain extent I also know that a lot of things are done and decisions are made that really benefit a small elite. And that is what the song is about. Of course. Old white men in the boardroom ...

Chris: Yes.

Swiss: ...and so...

Chris: Well, I'm actually looking forward the most, not to the comments of those who understand it or who welcome the criticism but most of all to the comments of those who misunderstand it. I stopped reading all the comments a while ago, because it drives me crazy to some extent, but I think I will do that to myself again for this song.

Swiss: So…

Chris: I just don't know yet if I want to discuss, because discussing on the net is super-senseless…

Swiss: Nah, you always lose there.

Chris: Yes.

Swiss: Like they say: "Don't feed the trolls."

Chris: Yes, absolutely.

Swiss: But I always find it exciting, I always find it very interesting... well, you write, you do something and you put it out into the world and you know exactly why, which line and what makes sense, but you know that there is still room for interpretation. And the people ... it's also just interesting, like ... Look, for example, on our record that we made, I had a line on it "We're bringing the bomb atmosphere and calling ourselves Gaza Strip" - and that was interpreted by some people as if I was somehow anti-Israel and as if I had somehow taken a position in this conflict - and that's not the point. For me it's just the play on words, there are bombs flying in Gaza - that's the bomb atmosphere.

Chris: One thing, I don't know, we are confronted with it relatively often. I don't know, is it the same with you, for example, we often get this “Hey, you're musicians, stop expressing yourselves politically!” - because your content is to a large extent generally political. With us it's different - we almost never do that, we do concept albums. That means, schwarz-tot-gold is rather an exception.

Swiss: With us it's exactly the opposite. “Hmm, you have too little politics on your album! A bit more class war again, please!”

Chris: Okay, sure. So it's also going in that direction.

Swiss: Well... totally. With us it's more like ... well, one thing is ... we had a lot of these discussions. One thing that I noticed very important, I think 2017 was the year where we were so hostile from some circles of the scene, you know, also at concerts and stuff like “Yes you take your clothes off, topless, you are sexists!” And those were just things where I say “No, we're not, and just because I do that I'm not a sexist.” And I just realized that I don't want to be the ...

Chris: Because you are topless, it is sexist? That's too much...

Swiss: Yes of course. Because I use a male privilege, so to speak, which women can’t...

Chris: Ah, that you show nipples!

Swiss: Right. Where I think "Hey, all of you can do whatever you want." You can discuss all that. The important thing is that you as an artist or a musician get to the point at some point, "No, this is it and that's my opinion on the subject.” I have listened to all this - but I see it differently. I realized that we are a left-wing band, but I don't want to be "the left scene band". I don't want to be the "left scene band" that does it all right, that does it exactly the way people want to hear it and that is always politically correct, because I find it difficult. So I think, tabooing certain things, and of course it also takes a certain amount of humour to it, has never overcome problems. Like sexual abuse in church, to make it taboo has never overcome sexual abuse!

Chris: Nah.

Swiss: Or anything. That doesn't help. And I do believe that one way to approach problems is always humour. And jokes. I think that this is already a way to have a good dialogue about things and not if you are not allowed to do this and that and that and all that. And if we stay dead silent about it and we don't talk about it...that doesn't change anything. Do you understand?

Chris: Well, I grew up with a lot of music like that – Die Ärzte for example. That's exactly the thing, a band that just managed to move me, on the one hand, to move me to tears, but on the other hand I had a lot to laugh about - and became aware of things concerning politics, also because of the humour, which I wouldn't have understood otherwise.

Swiss: Totally!

Chris: As a 14-year-old, I understood things - and I understood criticism of things as well - that nobody else would have made me understand, and that's exactly what's super important to me. And the thing is - that's why I'm so grateful for this chance of this collaboration, because our last album was a concept album – actually no, it was a classic album (Swan Songs III). Before that we made a concept album (Thornstar), the next album is going to be a concept album - we're more into some mythical things, everything is really super unworldly. Super peculiar with all the make-up and stuff. But we also have things to say that are very important to us.

Swiss: Of course. 

Chris: And here we have the platform. Like this. Finally the platform was there to do this!

Swiss: Yes. I mean, you're a guy, you live in St. Pauli, right in the neighbourhood, and you know all that, and I think that as a band, it's important that it always depends on the moment when you feel like doing a song. Because from the moment you have the feeling, oh, I'm going to make a record and I have to make at least three songs that are like this and like that - then it's going to be shit!

Chris: No, you have to find it really cool yourself.

Swiss: You know, you have to be up for it and you have to have the need for it yourself. For example, one thing I've noticed about myself... there are so many opinions out there, every dick always has an opinion about something. And sometimes I'm like "Hey dude, I don't feel like saying anything because there's just..."... actually it would be better if everyone would just shut the fuck up a bit more. But no, everyone has something to say ...

Chris: Make an instrumental album.

Swiss: Like this. You know? Yes but... or an album where it's just about things you can't have an opinion about. Only feelings. You know, no idea. That's often the music that works well, you know. It's all about feelings.

Chris: Sex.

Swiss: Yes! But sometimes I'm at that point that I think there are too many opinions. And through the Internet, there is simply the possibility for everyone to express his shitty opinion.

Chris: But would you even be able to stand it to shut up? Because with me it was like this - okay, we do it much less, we always have from time to time, when we were critical, it was mainly very critical towards the church, that is, institutionally, not criticism of the believers, but just ...

Swiss: ...about the church.

Chris: …about the church itself, or we have a lot of LGBT issues that have been discussed. But for me this is a real outlet and I'm really proud of it, also with the song, to be allowed to open my mouth. Would you be able to keep your mouth shut then? 

 

(21:57)

Swiss: No, because from the moment you want to say something - you say it. Well, I don't consciously hold myself back now, but I notice with some topics that, no, I simply can't contribute anything. And I have the feeling that too much has already been said about it. And I also find it hard. Opinion is so inflationary these days and it goes so fast that someone makes a little mistake with something and then the mob drives him through the village with pitchforks, you know what I mean?

Chris: That will happen with this interview of ours. Each of us will have said things here where...

Swiss: Yes. You know, I think that attitude has to be a little bit detached from the hype. And from any trend and from any feeling ... there was this discussion when the murder of George Floyd was, and so on and so on, it started that a lot of people, also influencers and people who until now have only advertised some protein products and "Aww my new cashmere pants from Dings etc. are so cool..!" and so that they all suddenly started saying something about it. And of course I thought it was very, very good that this topic now gets a platform that it perhaps didn't have before. And of course I thought: "Well, in Germany people are also burned in the cell, immigrants and so on and so on, and you all didn't care about that, and now there's the hashtag and now there's the platform and now people who never said anything about it before jump on it etc...”

Chris: Right. On the one hand, but then I think to myself-

Swiss: Better like this...!

Chris: "Better now than not at all!"

Swiss: Right. What I'm getting at is that a lot of indignant people came up to me: "Why don't you say something about this topic?” And I think like this "Have you ever listened to our last five records?”

Chris: You've been saying something about it for the last years already!

Swiss: There is nothing I can add to the topic right now. Of course, but is it somehow new for you that there is racist motivated police violence? And that institutional racism exists? And structural racism? Is that new for you? Not for me. And I've been saying something about it for years. And from the moment I feel so compelled to say something, because it's the headline right now, somehow I…in such moments I always have to resign.

Chris: That's quite funny, because I recently experienced something similar, that a colleague from another band came up to me and accused me, he told me "In the last weeks/months you've been posting more and more politically motivated stuff, a lot of gender-mainstreaming, trump-bashing etc”… I don't know, things like that sometimes also very sarcastic through humour, and he said, that he finds it sad, that I only shout out a political opinion because it's trendy. And he said that my whole political opinion is also based on political trend charts ... where I thought, hey... hm…

Swiss: Political trend charts?! That's awesome.

Chris: Where I thought, hey hard, hey. Heavy. And that actually hurt me a little bit, because I actually had a high esteem about my colleague, but then I really thought "All right, that’s tough, you don't seem to know me at all. I don't just open my mouth because there's a hashtag going on right now. That is hard.

Swiss: Yeah.

Chris: So, this is heavy.

 

(25:51)

Swiss: And I know that about you too. And I think it's so funny. We are in total agreement, the bigger an important topic like racist motivated police violence, structural racism ...the bigger such a topic is, the better. But, for me - I see myself in the theme... you know, it's easy to play in front of a full hall with a huge orchestra in Madison Square Garden during peak season. But I think it's also important that there are people who stand on the side of the road in Eastern Germany with their out-of-tune violin and make music. And that's always a bit of a shame for me, it's a huge theme on Instagram, all of a sudden you're all there, but where are you all when small events in youth centres in East Germany take place, where they are facing right-wing attacks… then there are little 16-17 year-old kids who are incredibly brave, opposing and doing cool actions. Nobody goes there, bands don’t go there to play shows in the east, where there’s trouble, they are not trying to change something in their own little microcosm. I think, is just a part of our culture. Unfortunately also that this topic has not been raised enough by many people and is not interesting enough. That they say: "Why don't I go 60 kilometres out of Berlin or out of Hamburg to this little youth centre, which has experienced attacks, they do a theme evening with performances and so on, and I go there with my girlfriend and we check it out, and support it and give it a stage, you know, on Instagram or somehow. That's why I think it's  cool as Feine Sahne makes it, who somehow goes to these places that you know, Anklam and so on and so on, Jarmen, they go there and you know, they use their reach to draw attention to it. And they were doing that even before they were not so well known yet. And that is important, it is not always only the loud symphonies that are important, but also the small notes that are played.

Chris: What makes me happy about it is that I also noticed that people were posting things, especially through the Black Lives Matter hashtag, who hadn't done that before and I had conversations with some people who said that this was a door opener for them.

Swiss: Of course!

Chris: There are people who ...sure, some of them post it in order to sooth their conscience and that's bananas, of course, but for some it was a door opener, to actually deal with such things.

Swiss: Yes.

Chris: And then with other things also, like through the back door. So now not only with the topic of racism in general, but also to question things critically.

Swiss: Yes totally. That's what I mean, I think that's good, because it is good for the overall consciousness, you know, and out of 100%, who have somehow suddenly become so active, if only 20% somehow get deeper into politics and into the problems, which...

Chris: I think 20% is very, very much... it won't even be that much.

Swiss: You know what I mean. It was already worth it. But for me personally, there are always people who criticize me and I think like this: "We've played in every town in the East, in front of 20 people, in front of 15 people, and we've had many evenings ..."

Chris: What was the smallest town you played in East Germany? What was the “rock'n'rolliest” place? Can you remember?

Swiss: Wow, I remember, we did a lot of festival stuff in the east at the beginning, so wherever it was really like that... Schwedt at the Oder was really hard, then we played in Breitungen.

Chris: I don’t know that one.

Swiss: Then we also played in the house of youth in... what was it called... so, endless!

Chris: The crassest, punk-rockiest where I've ever been, that was with my first band, back then, I think in 2003 or so, it was right on the Czech border, Johann-Georgenstadt, in a

Station building, which was one of those small extra rooms, which was the youth hostel and you had a hundred meters as the crow flies to the Czech border... or was it Poland? No, Czech Republic is down there, or next to Southern Germany?

Swiss: Ehm... it depends on where?

Chris: Punish me for lying in the comments, but that was ... bah, that was badass.

Swiss: Where my heart always goes up - you're playing in some eastern town, and you know very well, there’s very high AfD-voters, there are always problems with organized fascists, and then you have these little kids, who arrive with an mohawk, with Antifa, with fuck AfD-clothes, who are very young and who arrive there and are very happy that you came there and that gives them full power. And I am always so excited how brave they are.

Chris: They have it really hard there, right?

Swiss: You know, for me in Hamburg-Sankt Pauli, those who can walk through St. Pauli with a shirt "Fuck Nazis" ...

Chris: Well that's just fashion.

Swiss: That's very easy.

Chris: Here we are again talking about fashion. In St. Pauli that is...

Swiss: Right. But if you live there and you position yourself clearly and you also know that you are not a strong guy and not a crass fighter ... that's courage. You know. I always find it so funny when people say "No, I don't fight, I'm a peaceful guy”. Then I always think "Yeah, okay, but that has nothing to do with peaceful” but that often has something to do with the fact that people are afraid of violence, but not being a good fighter, and still straightening up and saying "I stand for my opinion!” - that is courage. And I think it's gigantic when I sometimes see, especially in the east, what brave kids there are, even in the youngest age. My heart really goes out there.

Chris: For me, too, since I have you more on the agenda, especially since we are demonstrating together now…

Swiss: Demonstrate?

Chris: Since we "demonstrate" together in the studio…

Swiss: Studio Demonstration.

Chris: Nah, since we produce together!  It's always on tour, you get a different view on band logos and of course you've grown as well, but there hasn't been a day on tour where I haven't seen kids, and often very young kids, with Swiss shirts, when you go downtown or something, somewhere. I was on vacation the other day, St. Peter-Ording, at a place where it was really super over-trendy, and I was walking between some kids on a bike with Swiss-Shirts ... and I was walking there for a long time and I didn't look like Rock'n'Roll at all that day, with my son holding my hand and all, and they had the Swiss-Shirts and I was probably for them the epitome of "Okay, he has long hair, but he looks like a really rich, fat cat" - and they looked at me so disparagingly and I just smiled to myself and thought, "hmm" ... it was somehow like this ... I understood them, but I just had to laugh because I thought ...

Swiss: Do you know what makes me so proud? The other day ... for example, I was somewhere in the shopping mall in Steilshoop, and there was a punk kid, and there was a second-hand stand where old grandmothers were selling something, and there was this punk kid, she was wearing one of those "Swiss und die Andern Missglückte Welt" hoodie things. And I see that, and I go there and say "Hey, what a nasty hoodie you have there!" - ... well, I wanted to do a joke! She gives me this look, and I realized she doesn't have a clue who I am! And then I thought, it's so cool, because I know that a lot of people wear our merchandise, because it's a statement, you know? It's like, now on a much smaller level of course, but you put on St. Pauli clothes - and say: "Hey, I am a human being, I have certain values, this and that and that!”

Chris: Yes, especially the “Missglückte Welt” items that don't have the Swiss logo on them. Today that's more of a statement thing.

Swiss: Yes! And that makes me so proud. And that I know - and on demos, when I see it that way... I know the kids wear our clothes because we stand for something.

Chris: Have you ever donated things to the homeless? I see so many homeless people in St. Pauli with Swiss-Merch. Or where did they get it?

Swiss: I don't know. Well, that's a great idea, because that's what Chu Rebel (Treble?) (34:54) did, he distributed a hundred ACAB caps to homeless people.

Chris: We also had some misprints, a few hundred something -something, where on hoodies there was something like... you couldn't sell them, because the stuff, the print, was so strangely creased. But we didn't want to throw them away, so we donated them, just like that.

Swiss: Well, like I said, I also have watched a documentary the other day - somebody sent me a documentary on Spiegel TV, I think, "Homeless women in the neighbourhood" - and it's real, and there was a girl who was really, really rocked down and you notice that, man, she saw it all, you know, and then a Swiss & die Andern hoodie. And I notice that at our concerts, too, of course it's already the case that somehow a certain trend audience always comes along now, but I still see the real ones at our concerts. I mean people who are broke, who really spend their last penny on a Swiss & die Andern ticket - and I want it to stay that way. Because I think, I don't know, I somehow have a special connection to the people who come to you, who came to you in the very beginning and who feel it. I have to think, there was once Westernhagen - he's... I can't say much about the music, but - the guy played stadium tours and then stopped. And then they asked him "Why did you stop there, you could have made a lot of money now." Well, he did, but ... and he says "Hey, I noticed at some point during these stadium shows ... 70-80% of the people who come just come because it's hype. I'm not in the mood for it." And then I thought "Yeah, that's cool, if at the end of the day you still have a claim on the people who are standing in front of the stage.”

Chris: Yes, also not to lose the closeness. I just know - our guitarist Pi told me that, I think, that Slipknot, because it just can't be bigger, they did a mini tour, in mini clubs, somehow ... so a few concerts only somehow, on the ground floor, in front of a hundred people maximum, just to be on tour. To do what they love. That is just the hottest thing.

Swiss: And let's not fool ourselves, you will feel the same way too... I mean, there are these epic first concerts, in such small places, where there are a hundred people...

Chris: Not even. I know you played in the Kaiserkeller in front of a handful of non-guestlist peple at a similar time, where we did exactly the same thing and all.

Swiss: Yeah, and I think there were moments like that, I remember it was one -  if not our first tour show in Switzerland, in Winterthur. 700-seat venue, and I think there were 110 non-guestlist people there. And do you know - there is this phenomenon, you go to a concert of some band, you think they are cool, for whatever reason, you go there, then you realize... oh, there are not many people here, f*** I somehow ended up in something that is not as hip as I actually thought.

Chris: It feels stupid, yeah.

Swiss: And then there are the concerts... you come in - and it was like that in Winterthur - there are 110 people, and everyone looks at each other and thinks "F***, we are part of an "elite", or part of a troupe that has already discovered something that the others don't know yet. And it was one of those heavy shows and it was so… goosebumps and everything, everybody didn't give a shit. It was like they were only 110 people, but it was like this - such a freak-out, and I can already tell that I have a different emotional connection to these people who were there at the beginning, that I somehow have a different bond to them.

Chris: I understand that and we still have these moments, we are on the road a lot internationally, and it's not like in Germany, so it's not like 1000 people or more come like in the Markthalle in Hamburg, but ... okay, we are still far away from 7000 in the sports hall ...

Swiss: Yes, but you play in Moscow in front of 1000 people.

Chris: Right. But, there are... exactly, Moscow, Hamburg...

Swiss: In Moscow all we can do is twiddle our thumbs when we play there. (means that Swiss is not really known in Moscow, so they can’t play a show in front of a lot of people there)

Chris: That's cool too. In the bag. But then there are always first times for us, like in the Eastern Bloc where there are sometimes less than 100 people, and where you still have that "first time" feeling. There are no barriers, which always annoys me at first, because people pour the beer into the guitar case, the photos look like shit, you always have a cell phone in your face with flash and stuff etc

Swiss: Most of the time you can't be seen on the photos, because the headlights are hanging so high…

Chris: But when you free yourself from it and then this energy unfolds - because these empty concerts - you know that yourself, they can go in two directions - either it's a fight, or it's just like you just told me. And that means, this "first time feeling" we fortunately still have that abroad in some places, where you think "Hey, cool! “

Swiss: Anyway, I think that- well, with you it's just the same as with us - we still went this original punk rock way. Play live!

Chris: Everything live.

Swiss: I remember on the last tour, when was that, 2018 or early 2019, we played the first time in Dresden. In front of 1200 people.

Chris: Schlachthof?

Swiss: Yes, I think we played in the Schlachthof. And then we stood behind the stage... or in Berlin, in front of 1600 people, the additional show at the Huxleys, where we had already played four times a year…

Chris: That's badass, yes.

Swiss: And you think, fuck dude, I used to play shows here in front of 15 people, and now suddenly - there are 1600 people here who got a ticket, in Berlin, or in Dresden or Leipzig, which used to be so far away for you. And there are just 1600 people who got a ticket to see you and your buddies on stage. And that is still the case for me - that is insane.

Chris: Sometimes I have these moments, that I don't really get it, because you get there...

Swiss: Really?

Chris: Yes, I have to keep telling myself, you get there and then, you know, this happens and then you have an appointment and then somebody wants an interview and then catering etc… you realize that the whole day is actually all about what you are doing. In the evening there’s the concert, then soundcheck, everything is planned and with tour management and blah ... and then I sometimes think ... then I see the poster and think: "Wow, so many people are coming tonight, and I am one of the five most important people in the room right now. This is all because... people are coming because of us!" And sometimes I just don't get it. I sometimes have the feeling when you play these big shows, that we are actually on tour with a bigger band and we just support them. That sometimes doesn't really get to me, and I actually find that pretty good. Because then you can still get overwhelmed, that you don’t lose this.

 Swiss: But don't you sometimes have these moments when you're on tour, when you play and there's such a lot of people there and ... well, I sometimes have moments that I get so emotional on stage, that's when I get so ... dude, I almost cry.

Chris: Yes, I do.

Swiss: Sometimes I have to be like that because I think, hey, you have been making music for eternities, it's just like this. At the end of every song you write, there's still the little boy who somehow wrote his first lyrics as a 15-year-old... and now you're standing here and can do what you enjoy and what makes you happy.

Chris: Those are mostly the quiet songs then.

Swiss: Yes.

Chris: There are moments when I do something alone with the acoustic guitar or something like that and then all the lighters - or now it's cell phones - go on.

Swiss: Or when people cry.

Chris: Yes, when you see them cry - in such wild songs when everything is so crazy, it doesn’t happen then - but in the quiet moments, that's when it really hits me.

Swiss: Yes, me too.

Chris: Or the people, hey. Well, for me ... if you let the people sing, and you realize ... you close your eyes and listen, that makes it so… in-ear, I have these plugs in my ear, and I realize I'm hearing people, and they sing your lyrics.

Swiss: In Moscow!

Chris: In Moscow or Mexico City and in English they are singing, you can still notice the accent - so that's like... wow, what? Unbelievable.

Swiss: I think that's why... well, I really feel that way. I think that’s the best about the whole thing - and that's because ... while Corona is just fucked and I realize that I miss such a big part of my life.

Chris: Very briefly: how did someone say it the other day... 2020, the year in which I made my job a hobby, is that what you mean?

Swiss: Yes exactly. I realize that there’s nothing in the world and nothing in the music making process, so whether we went to number two in the charts, that was cool.

Chris: As if you’d care…

Swiss: Yes, but that doesn't replace a cool show.

Chris: Nah. No.

Swiss: Somewhere where you didn't expect it.

Chris: Of course not.

Swiss: And you look at faces and notice that they shine so much, you know they're up for it, and that's easy for me - as I said, I always feel that way... that's why I do it.

Chris: The other day, there was also a colleague from another band, where I was very surprised - who said: "I don't see the problem. Well, Corona is going on, people are all staying at home - we never sold as much merch as in Corona times. So everything is good until now!" Then I thought: "Huh?! Dude... of course it's money, of course financial security is an important part for me - not to be happy but to be satisfied because it makes you relaxed, but my current account balance through selling merch cannot equalize with why I started all this in the first place! Well, it is like this...

Swiss: And that's what we do - well, fortunately our merch is also Corona-resistant, but I also think that's exactly what you're saying, I mean, for me the first time that I've realized that I can live from music to a certain extent, I can make a living, that was ... I always had to pinch myself.

 For all my life I worked in a warehouse on the side - I lived on 1000 Euros. And when I didn't have to get up the first time to go there - well, I felt guilty.

Chris: Sometimes you think you have to do something...

Swiss: Like “That can't be, you're not working at all, you slept until ten o'clock today”, and so on and so on and now on something like that, I don't know, of course it's also to realize now, I can live on it, live well in the meantime, and don't have to turn over every cent and can do what I love, it's gigantic. And I mean, who can say that about themselves?

Chris: Are you confronted with the statement: Is this still punk rock? How true can you be? Are you still allowed to sing lyrics like that when you are no longer part of it, according to the motto: "You fight against the establishment, now you are part of it"? Do you hear something like that?

Swiss: Yes, of course. Especially in our scene, it is - from the moment you earn a Euro, people ask why you don't donate it in solidarity. I think that everything you do is always about caring for others and also about self-care. And I believe that of course - you know that yourself - what you have done in the last years to your body and also to your soul - I feel that way - is predatory exploitation. Especially people like us - I can guess how you work - you don't have a break. You are not satisfied. You are not satisfied, especially when you are independent, which you are somehow “by yourself and all the time”, as I call it. (this makes a word play in German. The German word for “independent” consists pretty much of the words for “by yourself” and “always”)

Chris: Yes.

Swiss: You have - well, I never have a moment where I am satisfied in the sense of "Oh, now I can lean back", but...

Chris: The world is finished.

Swiss: It goes on and on. I can't- It's also a disease. I cannot stop.

Chris: Do you think you are a workaholic? Is it already addictive behaviour, is it already abusive behaviour, or do you just like working?

Swiss: I like working very much.

Chris: Yes, me too.

Swiss: I really like working, but I realize of course that sometimes - and I noticed this a lot last year, when I was at the point where I thought: "Hopefully this will go well", when I realized that it's too much - I've put too much on myself and that's one thing I've learned a little bit, to take care of myself a little more.

Chris: Yes, and being able to say "No" to things.

Swiss: Right. "No, I don't want that now."

Chris: That's what I've actually learned through this Corona break now.

Swiss: "I don't want that." And if you're honest, you always know when you're not up for something. And here I am - I would like to treat myself better. And as far as money goes: You know, I think, hey, look, if you've been making music since you were 16 or something , and I've always put every cent I've earned in any way up until 4 years ago into music, into videos, into trips here and there...

Chris: But that is still the case now. This whole schwarz-tot-gold thing here, we paid for that.

Swiss: We really paid for that.

Chris: That's true.

Swiss: Well, guys, we just paid for this video out of our pockets, there's no money behind it, we paid for it because we're just enjoying it. That is still in the foreground. And I believe that it is just fair. If you spent so many years with nothing at all... well, stupidly said, if you would convert everything, the time we invested into the music into hours - then we would be below-1-Euro-workers.

Chris: Yes of course.

Swiss: And that's why I always say when people get upset that bands have become successful or rappers or so become successful and have money, and I say that you don't make music for 10 or 15 years without success, because you think you're going to get rich at some point or because you want to get rich, but you do that...

Chris: …because you love that.

Swiss: …because you love that.

Chris: …because you need it.

Swiss: And it's the same with me. If I were packing shelves at Rewe, I would also go to the rehearsal room with my boys on the weekend and play music…

Chris: But that's-

Swiss: …because that is my thing!

Chris: I've told about it in an interview or something the other day, I had to face the statement: "You have it easy now after the overnight-success of Lord of the Lost" - where I thought: "It took me 20 years to achieve  this overnight-success".

Swiss: Yes.

Chris: Think about it.

Swiss: Yes. I always have to laugh when people say "Hey, you guys got to the top so fast and somehow overrode this scene." So dude, where did we get there fast, bro? I have been doing it forever, the guys play music forever, so that's total bullshit. And even if it is... at the end of the day you just become successful because people like to hear what you do and I don't think it's anything to justify yourself for.

Chris: Yeah of course not. We do these eye-to-eye interviews quite often and 2 things that always interest me a lot and I ask everybody: one, how exactly did you start making music and, two - because you also write songs - can you remember the first song you wrote or lyrics or whatever.

Swiss: Well, I actually wrote stories as a little boy. About a dog and a cat, Lucky and Pussy, actually.

Chris: *laughs* Lucky and Pussy! Cool!

Swiss: And they had adventures.

Chris: Cool!

Swiss: And I wrote little stories. And then I remember that I listened to different music than rap, but it started with rap because it was kind of easy. I couldn't sing and then there was HipHop-eJay or something, a very cheap program. And then we used to record the first songs in my children's room with a headset when I was 15 or so. And... It was all great...

Chris: Do these recordings still exist?

Swiss: Nah…

Chris: Too bad. That would make a great bonus track.

Swiss: My first real recordings I actually recorded at Fast B in Stralsund, which I got to know through a band, rap guys I knew, TAC, Treadis (or Triadis?) Artem Connection (?), through them I got to know the guy who came out of the corner - best regards - and I got to know him through them, and he had his studio in some bunker or something. And that was such an intense moment for me when he said to me: "I would like to invite you to my place in Stralsund and you can record that.” I remember when I rode to Stralsund with my first girlfriend in my car, recorded three songs and came back at night and he burnt them for me. And I listened to these songs, these recordings, unmixed, in the car and I thought "Dude, this is intense". One song was actually "Deutschland” which we later recorded again in a different version, and that was so ... goosebumps.

Chris: But do you remember the very first thing you wrote? Do you still remember that?

Swiss: I think it was a Hamburg song. "Hamburg Beats" was the name of it. "Those are Hamburg beats, those are, those are, those are Ham-" So really whack! And it just went like this... I've always been such a stuck hamburger. I think it was just a song about how cool Hamburg is - and that's what my records are about. There is always a song about Hamburg.

Chris:  Große Freiheit, St. Pauli...

Swiss: And about the quarter, simply because I naturally believe that a large part of my identity is also somehow created by Hamburg. I don't know... you know, from school... I have so many friends from school with whom I have finished High School, who somehow...

Chris: You have graduated from High School?

Swiss: I have graduated from High School.

Chris: That is disappointing.

Swiss: Even studied. Should have got the cab license right away. But I think, if it goes "Yes, I was in Munich for a while now, now I'm in Berlin, then London, then Düsseldorf", how can you leave this city like that... and you were already everywhere somehow.

Chris: I moved around a lot as a child, I'm so glad that I'm back here.

Swiss: Really, have you ever lived anywhere else?

Chris: Yes, my father always had to somehow ... he always managed branches, he worked for an insurance company and we had to go to Munich and Dortmund and so on, but I'm a Hamburg citizen and we came back when I was 12. And I don't think you can get me out of here so quickly.

Swiss: No way! For me it's like this, you've really seen so many cities in the course of your years touring, -and there are awesome cities, I was just now, we visited family in Frankfurt and I got to know Frankfurt again from a completely different side and I thought, wow, awesome city, and Berlin, Munich and Cologne, they all have something, Leipzig... but I always think when I drive back to Hamburg over the Elbe bridges.

Chris: Now it’s all good again.

Swiss: *Relieved sigh* You know, walking the dog on the beach of the Elbe, looking at the ships, drinking coffee, I always think like this: Dude, how can you leave from here?

Chris: There is actually only one city on tour so far, where I thought, okay, here I could grow old, and that was Helsinki, because that is like Hamburg, only in small.

Swiss: Okay, I have never been there.

Chris: Well, if you imagine how one... ok, this is Finland now and not Sweden, but the way one would draw Hamburg in an Astrid-Lindgren-book, like this.

Swiss: Ah okay.

Chris: So everything a little bit smaller and cuter, like this.  THIS Feeling. That - really - that was awesome.

Swiss: Talking about which... Copenhagen - great city.

Chris: Also cool, yes.

Swiss: Lisbon. So... I'd love to go to Lisbon or if you ever, I don't know, earn some money and have a little house there or... these are cool cities, I have to say. I even like it in Switzerland, I like Bern very much because you can get to the mountains quickly, it's kind of small and tranquil. I think you can live everywhere if you have a network of people you like and have something to do, but somehow I know that I could never leave this city for good and never for long.

Chris: Nah, actually me neither.

Swiss: Because it is the best city in the world. You simply have to tell the people here that...

Chris: Yes and that's not subjectively coloured in any way, that's just the way it is.

Swiss: That's just the way it is!  This is the most beautiful, best city in the world.

Chris: That is also scientifically proven.

Swiss: That is proven. That can be calculated.

Chris: But I have to pee now, we have to stop now. Do you also hate it when in an interview somehow the interviewers ask you "Well, do you have any last words?” I always hate it.

Swiss: I hate it, yes. I have no last words.

Chris: No, I never did.

Swiss: In any case, you can say "Guys, please discuss under the video, argue, sow discord, do Fitna and...

Chris: Do what?

Swiss: Fitna...

Chris: What is Fitna?

Swiss: Like…start a fight.

Chris: Beef?

Swiss: Beef.

Chris: But Beef is 90s, right?

Swiss: Beef is 90s.

Chris: So Fitna. Make Fitna.

Swiss: Make Fitna, guys, and... Yes, visit us on tour, wherever you're sitting, when it starts again.

Chris: Us, not Swiss.

Swiss: Come and visit us... I spoke as a roadie of the band Lord of the Lost.

Chris: Yes exactly.

Swiss: I'm also happy when you visit the boys.

Chris: You are always on tour with us as my vocal coach.

Swiss: Right. You don't have to visit us, we’re usually sold out anyway, so... No! Yes, visit us all live...

Chris: Bye. I'm going for a pee.

Swiss: Bye. I have to go pee too. Do you want to go pee together?

Chris: Yes. Do you want to do the railroad?

Swiss: What's that?

Chris: I sit in front and you sit in the back, and then we can...

Swiss: I piss in your ass.

 

Translation: Margit Güttersberger, Jari Winter

Proofreading: Jari Winter, Eliza Kapa