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Episode 9 – White men in Transylvania

Swiss und Harms – Zwischen Tour und Angel

 

 (translator’s note: in German you literally say, “between door and hinge” for “in passing,” they altered it to “between tour and hinge”)

 

Description of the episode:

In episode 9, Chris and Swiss venture a rather positive outlook on the year 2024, which is quite refreshing in these times when you generate clicks by grumbling. But then Swiss drops the T-bomb and wants to talk to Chris about the difference between trans people and cultural appropriation. It's a sensitive subject, and it should be said once again at this point: we don't know anything, we're just asking questions because we need tutoring here and there, and we're happy to have a (civilized) discussion in the comments to broaden our horizons!

 

 

*Phone makes a “ping” sound*

Chris: Where is Werner? Ah, there’s a message.

Swiss: I’m just taking my little girl… I’m at Schulterblatt currently (street in Hamburg, weirdly named “Shoulder blade”), so I’ll be there a bit later, a few minutes past nine.

Chris: Alright! 

*Doorbell rings*

Chris: Werner! Werner, it’s nice to see you! How do you do?

*Intro playing*

Swiss: I’m taking a coke too, they are free, right, or will you charge me for them?

Chris: Yes, at the end of the year!

Swiss: Yes, okay.

Chris: At the end of the year. At the end of the year, you’ll have cash again, won’t you?

Swiss: I had—we have just been on tour and Pat said there’s nothing left from it.

Chris: But Pat has a new car.

Swiss: *laughs* Yes. Pat somehow has a new car, some…

Chris: Mine’s already open, do you want to open it already? (talking about their Coke bottles)
Swiss: Thank you. Well, Christian, it's May 14, 2024, and we're back here in… uh, in Hamburg St. Pauli.

Chris: Episode 9.

Swiss: Episode 9, and I want to ask you: How are you doing—really. Not “covered in make-up” now, like saying “yes, everything is ok” but I want to hear how are you really feeling today? You look slightly euphoric I have to say. I don't know why that is. I would say maybe it's because of me.

Chris: Well, of course I'm always happy to see you, it always has a physical effect on me too… not the one you're thinking about now, but—

Swiss: I can confirm that.

Chris: Hormones.

Swiss: I can confirm that.

Chris: I’m doing very well right now. We were just at the Eurovision Song Contest at the weekend.

Swiss: That’s right! A Swiss has won.

Chris: A Swiss.

Swiss: Can we talk about this sometime? 

Chris: Did you watch the contribution?

Swiss: Nope.

Chris: Dude. You really must watch it sometime.

Swiss: I have been working. Is it good?

Chris: Yes, it is really, really good.

Swiss: But it is a trans person, right? Or non-binary?

Chris: Non-binary.

Swiss: Okay.

Chris: A violinist, pianist, plays drums, did a lot of rap in their youth, but also does really awesome falsetto vocals, the song is a mix of drum and bass, Eminem, and Bohemian Rhapsody. Really good.

Swiss: Awesome. By the way, today I must ask you something concerning the whole trans/non-binary topic.

Chris: Okay. But wait, please let me [explain] very briefly why I'm so euphoric: of course, ey, because I live here in St. Pauli, and now… promotion of FC St. Pauli, that was really… so what was going on here, that was really—

Swiss: But you were not in the stadium, were you?

Chris: I was not in the stadium, but we watched it on TV and the storm at the end—well, I really got goosebumps, and then afterwards [we] of course went out, walked around outside for a few hours, just breathing in the vibe and buying another new St. Pauli shirt and—

Swiss: Now you can buy a St. Pauli shirt again, as you once again can—

Chris: Exactly!

Swiss: I tell you one thing—

Chris: But that’s why I’m doing great now. That’s nice.

Swiss: —the second… the first division doesn’t even know yet what an awesome club and especially what cool fans are coming their way now. I think there are a lot of foreign players who play in the first division—

Chris: Yeah.

Swiss: —who have heard of this myth “St. Pauli”, and now suddenly when they go to Hamburg, particularly when the “Dom” (huge fair in Hamburg, that takes place three times a year) is taking place by that time, the stadium, you notice this all and think to yourself: “ey, what's going on here?” And I also have to say—

Chris: It would be great to stay in the first division for a little while, wouldn't it? I'm not at all—I don't know anything about soccer, I only know two names of the St. Pauli players, but I like the flair; I want to be part of the hype without having to have an incredible amount of knowledge.

Swiss: Do you think they should play a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-3-3, how would you see it with St. Pauli?

Chris: Yes, both are good: 50:50, 60:60, but staying [in the first division] would be cool, right? Because look, it could of course also be that next year—in one year St. Pauli will be relegated and HSV (Hamburger Sport Verein, another Hamburg soccer team) will be promoted and that will of course be embarrassing.

Swiss: I have heard the scenario that some people wish for, from St. Pauli circles—

Chris: German Champions. *laughs*

Swiss: No, that would be—St. Pauli of course loses a lot, as we also expect, and ends up in the relegation place—

Chris: —and then relegation against HSV, Mm-hmm.

Swiss: —and HSV also ends up in the relegation place and then relegation against each other and that would be of course—

Chris: —and then, yes.

Swiss: —the Derby of all Derbies, because all Derbies beforehand don’t matter at all, whether you ascend or relegate, but—yes, I’m a bit sad nevertheless for the HSV fans; I always make fun of them a bit, but I tell you how it is: I also know a lot of HSV fans—

Chris: Yeah, me too.

Swiss: —and they are incredibly sad, and they also want to get into the first division again with their club, and I definitely hope that St. Pauli will stay there next year, that HSV ascends and Heidenheim relegates, because I don’t know where Heidenheim is, bro.

Chris: To be honest, I don't know where they are from either. I think that’s somewhere near Mannheim.

Swiss: No, near Heidelberg… Mannheim, yes, it’s that region.

Chris: But I… It's just simply when you're a St. Paulian and for once St. Pauli is the club in the first division and for once it's not HSV, and I don't mean anyone any harm and at the end of the day it's just soccer, it doesn't matter, but it just feels really cool, even if you're not—

Swiss: That’s clear.

Chris: —I was asked, and here we come back to the topic very briefly: national pride, regional pride. People have written to me: "Hey Chris, you must be really proud now, right?"… and I said: "Guys, it's like with national pride, I'm happy for the team, I'm happy about the vibe here in the district, but I'm not proud now… I haven't done anything for it.

Swiss: Yes, yeah.

Chris: It is not my merit.

Swiss: I think it just fits into such an awesome year, doesn't it? We've both played a tour, St. Pauli is getting promoted, there's a European Championship, you know, do you remember who—

Chris: I only realized last week that it is taking place in Germany, I'm so “soccer stupid”, dude.

Swiss: World Cup 2006, man, I loved it when people from all over the world—*some dropping/catching sound*—did you just see that? Have you got some cloth for me?

Chris: I’ll do that later. Never mind that now.

Swiss: *to the audience* You did not see that; I've just pulled a Coke bottle stunt here!

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Swiss: And that was already the case back then—I hope you can hear that now—

Chris: You will be here again for cleaning on Friday, right?

Swiss: —as I am cleaning right now. Yes, exactly, with my—

Chris: Mm-hmm. I can give you money in advance.

Swiss: Since when do you give money? Christian—Sparsian. (untranslatable word creation, suggesting that Chris does not give money away easily)

Chris: *laughs*

Swiss: What was I going to say? Exactly, people from all over the world—

Chris: Yeah.

Swiss: —in the city, somehow there was such a great atmosphere and then we also have our open air, bro. (Open Air Show, Swiss & Die Andern, Aug. 17^th, 2024, Hamburg)

Chris: I’m totally looking forward to it!

Swiss: Yeah, me too.

Chris: I have seen, you’re doing several Open-Air shows.

Swiss: Yes, we have one in Leipzig and one in Stuttgart.

Chris: Are they also as big? Not quite as big, right?

Swiss: Not quite as big, in Hamburg it’s huge.

Chris: 10,000, and how many are there in the other places?

Swiss: The other ones… I think in Stuttgart it’s 4,000.

Chris: Like, the size of Stadtpark? (city park)

Swiss: Exactly, it’s called something like this—and it also looks a bit like it. But you can do it “from-to” (indicating a range).

Chris: Sure.

Swiss: And in Leipzig it's in the courtyard of Täubchenthal, (venue in Leipzig) 2,000 people fit there, and I am happy—

Chris: I know it, it’s absolutely beautiful there.

Swiss: Täubchenthal is definitely awesome, I am simply just looking forward to this year so much, that’s why—you did not ask me, people know you, maybe for a bit you also don’t care how I am doing—

Chris: Yeah.

Swiss: —it’s for a bit a mix of “totally done”, I noticed that towards the end of the tour—

Chris: Plattdeutsch ^[1] *laughs*

Swiss: —wow, dude, it was really tough towards the end, I am really exhausted, but… some blissful exhaustion.

Chris: But did you recover vocally towards the end or was it still the case that you thought: “Dude…”

Swiss: I was struggling till the end, I have loaded myself up with pills, there is this rheumatism medication—

Chris: Yeah.

Swiss: —which acts on the tendons and has a slightly decongestant effect.

Chris: What is it called?

Swiss: Uhm…

Chris: Not this Broma-, Broma-…?

Swiss: No, I just take Bromalin normally (he probably means “Bromelain”)

Chris: This pineapple thingamabob.

Swiss: It is… I think… Diclac-…fenyl? Diclac…? Or something similar (probably “Diclofenac”)

Chris: Yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.

Swiss: Exactly. Even my vocal doctor told me: "If you have problems, you can take this for a few days". And then I actually have—

Chris: I think “vocal doctor” is a really cool word.

Swiss: A cool word, which I think I have made up, I think, it doesn’t really exist. And then I have—I think I found this out by chance from Ferris and Whizzy—two pieces of BoxaGrippal (cold and flu medication), the little ones—

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Swiss: —or one big one, two hours before the show… that opens up everything!

Chris: Oh really?

Swiss: It’s insane, bro!

Chris: But isn’t it just Vitamin C and caffeine and ibuprofen and stuff?

Swiss: There’s everything in there, but the pseudo-ephedrine is released, you know—

Chris: Okay, okay.

Swiss: —and you're really—after two hours… the body somehow does… well, I had such a voice beforehand… it was never "crunch-crunch time".

Chris: Yeah.

Swiss: I always knew that "I can play today", but you know how it is, it's the second evening tonight and I still have four of them ahead in total.

Chris: You always see some kind of “energy bar” in front of your eyes.

Swiss: You're like: Hey, I don't want to kill myself today, and—I don't know if you know that moment in the tour bus as you wake up, and the first word you say… "hello"… and you realize "oh yes, today it works!"

Chris: I always do… because the problem with me is the clean, high [tones], which means I wake up in the morning and if someone is still asleep, then… *makes weird sounds* I make funny noises.

Swiss: Yeah, yeah.

Chris: Someone said: “Are you dying?!” I went: “No, I must try out if I can manage to get up this high!”

Swiss: I even sometimes wake up at night and do this, I go: *makes weird sounds*… “okay, I must sleep some more.”

Chris: But that’s amazing, sometimes you wake up at night, you realize it doesn’t work… and you know if you sleep five more hours—

Swiss: It gets better.

Chris: —it gets better.

Swiss: And there's one thing you really shouldn't underestimate: Adrenaline regulates.

Chris: Yes.

Swiss: I used to be really worried: “oh no, my voice!” and so on, and now I'm like: “it'll be fine! It'll work out somehow.” And that's also the reality and I think that if you then… at shows like this where you have problems with your voice, you say: “ey, I'll start a bit quieter”, and after 3-4 songs your voice is so warmed up—

Chris: Yeah.

Swiss: —that it works somehow. And we finished our tour in Cologne, which was similar to your show in Leipzig.

Chris: That was sick, I have seen pictures.

Swiss: That was the biggest show with 3,000 people, bro, and they were so—ey, this whole tour, Christian, I—

Chris: But I also think that Cologne is always party-happy.

Swiss: Yes, but Cologne has also been too anti-social at times.

Chris: Really?

Swiss: I've also played shows in Cologne, especially in smaller venues, where I thought: “Wow, bro, this is antisocial”—and this time Cologne was so sweet, the people were so nice, so many girls, so many cool, “fresh” boys, also so many kids with their parents and somehow the mosh pit was nice also. I think it was the first time in Cologne—someone wrote to me: “I met a nice boy in the mosh pit who looked like this and this, could you share that?” I shared it, they found each other.

Chris: Cool.

Swiss: Then another girl wrote to me: “ey, I met a guy in the mosh pit” and I thought: “man, this is really, really nice!” And the tour was just… it was gigantic. The 257ers (German rap duo) were also there—

Chris: Yes.

Swiss:  —and Dennis, our merch guy, came on stage while “Wir gegen die” (“Us against them”) and rapped along.

Chris: Mm-hmm.

Swiss: It was just so nice!

Chris: Is he the short one with lots of piercings?

Swiss: “With all the shit in her face” (quote from Pulp Fiction). Do you know Pulp Fiction?

Chris: Yes of course.

Swiss: “Who is the one with all the shit in her face?”

Chris: Yes, right.

Swiss: And afterwards we went to the after-show party, and it was funny because the venue had been sold out for ages, and we got there relatively early, and there were a lot of people there, but that was totally ok because you could also stand outside, and we took photos for a very long time. And after about an hour and a half you realize, ey, there are only 80 people or so left here, out of 500, and it was so nice. My colleague Mo from the—

Chris: Because there’s space, right?

Swiss: —yes, my colleague Mo from the—yeah, and it was so relaxed, bro, you know, all the photos were taken and everyone who was still there still wanted to vibe to music, and—

Chris: That's—don't forget this—for the people out there: the moment when an after-show party starts for us is when the autograph session is over. Because before that—you want to make everyone happy somehow, and only afterwards is it a case of well, now we can hang out, because everyone has got their photo.

Swiss: Exactly.

Chris: And his autograph and whatever, and only then it’s: we can just be together now.

Swiss: And it was so nice man, to be drinking with random people, dancing and being really “swept out” of the club; the one bouncer is also now, because we've played during our “Kleine Clubs zerficken” (“Fuck up small clubs”) tour there twice, he's so… that's really cool, bro, so he's such a cool guy—yes, and so we were there until the end, hardly slept, and the next morning or at noon we drove into the city right at St. Pauli's ascent.

Chris: Yeah.

Swiss: Bro, that really was a wild weekend, I am very, very happy now, I will play three more shows with Ferris in June.

Chris: Yeah.

Swiss: I am looking forward to that.

Chris: You are doing “Phönix aus der Klapse” (“Phoenix from the madhouse”) together?

Swiss: Exactly. “Keine Panik” Festival (“No Panic” Festival in Germany), Rock the Hill (Festival in Germany) … I have been there before, that was totally cool, and NovaRock (Festival in Austria).

Chris: Yeah, that was—

Swiss: Nicely going to NovaRock in the Sprinter.

Chris: That’s where we met two years ago.

Swiss: Right!

Chris: The black and white pictures that we used for that one episode; they were—

Swiss: Right! And we will play there again on Sunday.

Chris: But “Die Ärzte” (German Band) will not be there again this time.

Swiss: No, but we are playing on this demolition stage, the Red Bull Stage. Ey, I have to say that anyway, it's so cool, I was there at the after-show and then a few people came and one story was really cool; there was a young girl who came up and said: “Thank you for playing Hotel zu den Sternen!” (“Hotel to the stars”)—because I didn't play it everywhere, we have talked about that before—

Chris: Yeah, yeah.

Swiss: —and in Cologne, even though it was so crowded they were very nice and calmed down, she went: “Thank you very much, the song somehow came out two or three weeks before my father died.”

Chris: Yeaah.

Swiss: He was also in the hospice, and I went—ey, I really had to fight the tears, she says: “then I went to see my dad and we listened to the song together and cried together”.

Chris: Nawww.

Swiss: Bro, and that was so touching, it made me so—I had to quickly… “Thanks! and “All good…” and left. You know it got me so emotional, but ey man, when people come to you and then also refer to our podcast, that happens a lot—

Chris: Yes, same with me. That’s sweet.

Swiss: Yes, and: “One thing that you also said in the Podcast gave me a lot to think about”—and I think it’s amazing and it’s also a nice feeling that you can do things away from the music, so to speak, which also help people or stimulate reflection or maybe also fuck them off. Probably if I ask you my questions about trans etc. in a moment, the one or the other will consider me uneducated or maybe a bit critical, but that’s a question that I have recently asked myself together with a buddy and a [female] friend. And we can talk about that in a moment. Tell me when you’re ready.

Chris: I'd like to talk about this audience, where you say it was such a colorful mix in Cologne—I had a similar feeling, and THAT is something I have to say I'm proud of, because I know we somehow managed that as a band.

Swiss: Only German people.

Chris: Exactly. Only Germans, no matter where we go, no matter—

Swiss: As was your wish.

Chris: —in which country, only Germans get—

Swiss: Only blonde, German men.

Chris: —only blonde, German men with blue eyes.

Swiss: Cis-Men.

Chris: Cis-Men.

Swiss: Who would like to join the military.

Chris: Exactly. Well, no, that was so awesome… for those who don’t understand why we have been at the ESC again this year, particularly the fans of Swiss & Die Andern who are not concerned with us. After last years’ experience we said that this “Eurovision Lifestyle”, this incredibly open-minded audience; they’re the most open-minded audience you can imagine—we want to continue to celebrate this. We would like to give a concert in the final city one day before the grand final every year from now on.

Swiss: Awesome!

Chris: That means next year we will be playing somewhere in Switzerland—the final city is not yet decided upon, also not the date, one day prior, and if next year—I don’t know—France wins, we’ll go there… and so on.

Swiss: Cool! You’ve jumped on a rolling bandwagon there.

Chris: Exactly!

Swiss: That’s clever marketing.

Chris: Look, once you've somehow achieved balance as a freeloader, you'll want to use the skills, right?

Swiss: Of course! Hey guys, all I can tell you is that Christian looks harmless… harmsless—

Chris: Yes. Yes exactly.

Swiss: —but he’s a sly old dog.

Chris: “No animals have been harmsed”—exactly.

Swiss: Very good.

Chris: So, we went there, played that concert—a small venue, 500 people, sold out—jam-packed, a former church building, which has been reconstructed.

Swiss: in Malmö?

Chris: In Malmö, that's right. And we started the set, then Gerrit and I did our own support band for three quarters of an hour. In other words, we played ESC hits from 15 years ago with just piano and voice. So, from ABBA “Waterloo” to, I don't know, Lena “Satellite”, also “Ein bisschen Frieden” (“A Bit of Peace”) by Nicole—

Swiss: People probably freaked out, didn't they?

Chris: “—Wunder gibt es immer wieder” (“Miracles happen again and again”) by Katja Ebstein—

Swiss: Awesome.

Chris: —So, I have no idea. So—

Swiss: Were there many Germans there?

Chris: Also.

Swiss: Wow.

Chris: So, what I wanted to say: this mixture of audience, I also said to the people: “We're proud of that”, because you had people with metal shirts and full beards. So, Wacken-goers, you had absolute super-goths with some kind of mesh shirt and tousled black hair and you had the typical ESC audience. The majority of the ESC audience are homosexual men, over 35, over 45, who were standing there with glitter make-up…

Swiss: Like you, so to speak.

Chris: Like us, exactly. People who dressed up like we did last year at the ESC, red, gold, and embarrassing. I'll tell you before you comment on it like that. And just any so…

Swiss: Wow, that would have been a song too: “Black, Red, Embarrassing”.

Chris: “Black, red, embarrassing”. Very cool.

Swiss: Oh, man…

Chris: Nah, and all just like that… Mainstream listeners from everywhere with Eurovision shirts, with Wacken shirts and I thought: “Wow, I think that's cool!”, and that's also something I enjoy about your audience, because you look into the rows, and you don't just have this one crowd. Sometimes you go to concerts, and you get the feeling that people come from one sub-sub-genre, and they don't look to the left or right. And when it mixes like that and especially when it mixes with mainstream, when underground mixes with mainstream; I celebrate that. Ultra hard. And I'm proud of that.

Swiss: Totally. So am I… Lino (Lostboi Lino was support band and crew for Swiss & Die Andern) was on the road with us, also a great guy and his whole band. Also, best regards to Michi and Anna, who were on the road with him, his guitarist and his drummer. And we also had a chat about how open our audience is.

Chris: I've also had a bit of a look at what he does. I listened to a few songs. I find it super entertaining.

Swiss: Super nice.

Chris: And above all, smart lyrics.

Swiss: Yes, totally. That's another guy and I just want to say: our audience is so open, you know? So last time Morty was with us, he raps. But when they realized that Morty is a cool guy, he has his heart in the left place (a pun on having his heart in the right place with a political twist), they took him to their hearts. And I think that's very, very cool, I have to say. So…

Chris: What did you want to ask me?

Swiss: Watch out. That's a question I'm asking myself now.

Chris: Because I also have an unpleasant question.

Swiss: Exactly. There's this discussion about saying… Well, there are those who say there are only two genders: there are men and women and of course there are always exceptions to the rule.

Chris: Do you mean biological hermaphrodites (he uses the word “Zwitter” here), for example?

Swiss: For example, things like that and so on and so forth. But basically…

Chris: Is it okay to say “Zwitter” or is it “hermaphrodite?” Sorry, I don't know what's…

Swiss: Doesn't matter. We don't have to get so hung up on the terms now.

Chris: Nope, I was just curious as to whether “hermaphrodite” is actually derogatory.

Swiss: I just want people to know it's not about that, please don't nail us to the cross for any misnomers. It's more about the—

Chris: Happens.

Swiss: —the principle behind it. Some people say there are not only two genders; there are also many things in between, biologically speaking. So, it's not because of my decision that I say, “I'm a man, I feel like I'm in the wrong body”, but that it's also biologically the case.

Chris: Even more so in the animal world than with us mammals and humans, but yes.

Swiss: Exactly. And then there's also the question of being able to decide that, so to speak. So, the way this family was dragged through the internet was also a bit mean, asking their child “What do you want to be read as today.”

Chris: It's difficult at an age where you might not even be able to understand…

Swiss: No, that's totally fucked up. I just wanted to say that it's a bit like that you can decide what you want to be read as, sexually. And the question now is this: if we negate biology to such an extent, in my opinion—

Chris: And interpret it differently…

Swiss: —what about skin color? So now I can say: “You, listen, I want to be read as an African American man”. Do you understand? Because at the end of the day—

Chris: What you identify as.

Swiss: —I can say “You, I realize…” And then, of course, we would be talking about cultural theft. I don't know who called it that… There used to be a word for that… “sexual appropriation”. Exactly. Serdar Sumuncu (a German Comedian with increasingly problematic statements) said “sexual appropriation” and that's a principle where the whole thing is not so consistent for me. If I say on the one hand: “Ok, if we say we can really decide what sexuality we want to have, live, be”, then that must actually also apply to… I don't know… wouldn't I then have to…? “Hi, I'm Swiss, I identify as a North American Indian. In Idaho.”

Chris: The big question is, where do you draw the line? You can say that about anything. If you look at the lateral thinking world again, two years ago there were such nice terms like “I don't get vaccinated, I identify as vaccinated. That's enough.” or “Today I identify as a squirrel or as a cupboard or as death.” So that's why… What exactly is your question? Do you think that should apply to skin color as well? Because it somehow undermines biology?

Swiss: For me, the question is where is the logic? So, where is the logic behind this reasoning in terms of sexuality where you say, “Hey, you feel...” and ey, let's get this out of the way: I really don't care at all who identifies as what. We talked about it. If you…

Chris: Me too. If everyone is happy, it's all great.

Swiss: There's just—I've given myself that—in the USA, this discussion is on a whole other level of hysterical. There are a few really right-wing people there, for example Ben Shapiro, who co-founded this thing. I think this “Breitbart” or something (he was employed by “Breitbart News” and then founded “The Daily Wire”). And he's a very, he's a very conservative American of Jewish descent. Family picture: “man, woman, marriage” and so on. And he always goes to the universities and discusses things with feminists and activists and so on and so forth. And he just said one thing… There's a trans man who you can totally see or who you can just… In my eyes, I'd say he's a man who's put on make-up. And he comes forward and says: “I'm a trans man, I have a family, and all my friends would identify me as a woman. They would say: 'She's a woman'.” Then he says dryly: “Yes, but you're not taking the piss out of me. I can just look at you and see that you're a man dressed as a woman.”

Chris: So, a trans woman then.

Swiss: Exactly. And he just says: “You, if we meet in private and you say to me 'Hey, my name is Sabine and I want to be read like this', then of course I'll address you like that. But if we're talking about science and stuff, then I can't go against my conviction that there are male and female chromosomes, and I can't go against my conviction that I think you're a man who feels like a woman.” And I just found that exciting… And another thing he said was “Sexuality is not just some costume we can put on. Depending on our desires.” And again, that's totally okay with me. I also know people, including someone I really like, who came up to me at some point and said: “This is my name now and I want you to see me as a woman.” That wasn't even an issue for me. That's totally fine with me. Nevertheless, the question remains for me: if we do that, what about things like skin color, a disgusting term, but with an ethnic affiliation and so to speak—

Chris: Ethnic origin.

Swiss: —is that the phenotype or genotype? You know what I mean.

Chris: I've now had a chance to think about it a bit in the background. I think, apart from the fact that I once saw a report about people who really want to feel different ethnically and let themselves be transformed into black or white, there is this one—

Swiss: Michael Jackson?

Chris: —No, there's one, somewhere… well, there are several, but there's one white woman who wanted to be black. She has piece by piece, so facial anatomy, through surgery and skin color, etc.… So there really is such a thing. She identifies as black, for whatever reason. But for me it's just like that these perspectives collide again. I naturally think: “I'm probably so problem-free with myself and my body that I just feel comfortable in my biological body. Say, I am a man, when I dress up as a woman for a music video or something, I do it because it entertains me, but not because I'm unhappy with my gender. It's just a game for me.” And now I'm wondering if there is someone who…

Swiss: May I… A quick question, without wanting to get too deep into it, is that a criticism that you've had to face, that they've said “You're actually doing this as a game. For you it's a game, but for me for example, as a man who really feels like a woman, I kind of feel… no idea. You just do it like that and then you undo it. That's an issue for me.” Is there this criticism?

Chris: Oh, in that direction! That's been criticized before, it's also been criticized that we as heterosexuals hold up the rainbow flag and say it's gay baiting. In other words, that we're just trying to catch gay fans. So, it's all there. I've been criticized for everything, for that too. But what I was getting at is, for example, we've also had a trans person in our crew at times, who also comes back at some point and a lot of conversations have arisen. That's a kind of respect for me, because I think that no matter how much the person tries to explain to me how it feels, I'll never understand what a struggle it is and then I think: “Ok, of course you're actually biologically born male or female or whatever, but you don't feel comfortable like this, you want to be read differently because you identify differently. I respect that and I call you something else.” Even if it was sometimes difficult for me, I had to get used to it because, in this particular case for example, this person was simply still very clearly visually assignable to the original, biological gender and it was then completely difficult for me to speak of he or she the other way around. But then I just do it. But if someone comes along now, to get to your original question, I can sort of understand this with the wrong body through many conversations, I can now somehow understand it to such an extent that it's easy for me to accept it and say, “I'll do it.” But this situation where someone comes up to me and says: “Hey, I'm actually from, I don't know, Brazil, very dark-skinned, but I see myself as a Viking with blue eyes and blonde hair, just a typical Norwegian type and that's how I'd like to be addressed by you now. From now on, please call me Viking and I'm white, by the way, even though I'm not.” That would be so new to me that I would have to deal with it first. It would be foreign to me. Very strange.

Swiss: But that's also… this example doesn't really get to the heart of the problem. The core of the problem is actually when I as a white man say for example: “You, I'm a dark-skinned South American from Ecuador, and I am directly affected by racism against the color of my skin.”

Chris: Oh, that you're like… Oh…

Swiss: So that's my question: we would actually be talking about absolute cultural appropriation. In the same way, we're already arguing about whether children who want to try out new roles should be allowed to go to kindergarten as “Indians”, but why is it in sexuality? I'm totally with you, I don't care.

Chris: Yes, but look, you say, if I understand correctly… Sorry, so when you say, ok, we're talking about someone who says: “I identify as black, and I would like you to see me as black and respect 300/400 years of slavery in my history.” That's where it gets weird at some point. It would be like a man saying: “I identify as a woman, I am a trans woman, and I would like to talk to you about feminism and about OUR history and about the oppression of women, especially in the last 100 years in Central Europe.” It gets silly for me at some point.

Swiss: But isn't that the case that…

Chris: So, it hasn't happened to me yet. I know a lot of trans people, but I've never had a discussion with a trans woman about the fact that she starts complaining about how she and other women, her sisters so to speak, have been treated.

Swiss: I don't think it's so much about that. I don't want to drift off too much on that point. Look, I spent a year in the USA. As a teenager, high school. I'm, I've never mentioned this here in the podcast, I'm in the Schanze (the Schanzenviertel is a trendy neighborhood in Hamburg), I was actually the only German kid. Or non-Turkish boy.

Chris: Yes, you've already said that.

Swiss: That was “I'll turn off the irony switch.”

Chris: Oh, I thought… My sarcasm level is pretty bad right now.

Swiss: It's all good. And I got to a certain age… Ey, I wanted nothing more than to be a Turk.

Chris: You're a trans Turk.

Swiss: No, but listen, from that point of view yes, because look, I talked like this…

Chris: It's a great song title: “Trans Turk.” I think it's great.

Swiss: I was talking as if I didn't really speak German, you know? So, I have certain—

Chris: You still do.

Swiss: —habitus—I still do—adapted like that. I acted like that, and I felt totally flattered when people spoke to me in Turkish. And then I went to the USA…

Chris: Do you actually speak Turkish? Yes, no, thank you, please, hello and so on?

Swiss: Yes, yes! Um, what was I trying to say?

Chris: Sorry!

Swiss: Then I went to the USA and went to high school and attended a school that was very dominated by African Americans and Latinos—

Chris: Where was that?

Swiss: Washington State. And that's not even really bad, as far as distribution goes! If you go to the south, it's a whole different level! In any case, I met a lot of white guys there who totally lived the culture with the durag (close-fitting cloth tied around the top of the head to protect the hair, popular in Black and African American culture) and the way they talk—

Chris: Well, Elvis grew up among black people, spoke like… Elvis' slang was like a black person.

Swiss: —was adapted, how the culture felt. And that's why I can empathize with this situation to a certain extent, you know? My point is this whole discussion is inconsistent for me. Because that's exactly where it ends! Of course, we get upset when I suddenly go out and say “I, the black rapper Swiss!” everyone says, “You cultural robber!”, you know? When I start… it goes even further! If I identify myself as black, I can also use the N-word within the framework of logic, because I'm talking about myself and my people. Do you know what I mean? But of course, that's not possible! And I just want to say that the thesis of my Missglückten Welt was always: Live the way you want to live! Be free, as long as you don't hurt anyone else! And I think that of course it doesn't matter what I feel like, whether I feel like a woman, or a woman feels like a man or whatever. But at this point, when we say “Yeah, ok”—

Chris: Where do we stop?

Swiss: We get worked up about biology on the one hand, when we talk about sexuality; but when it comes to skin color or origin, we are very strict and very sober, saying “No, that is obviously a black person!” or—

Chris: Or is it simply because there are certain things… I mean… that it's basically… that this trans movement, as far as sexual identity is concerned, has become important, is simply because there are simply a lot of people who were not allowed to speak out for years. They were removed and got ignored. That there is a need, perhaps—I'll just say it like that—perhaps the need for people, or the number of people who have the need to feel that they belong to a different ethnic group in terms of identity, and take it so far, that they want to undergo biological surgery for example, is so small, perhaps that's just… It's an interesting thought experiment, but perhaps it's just not important—

Swiss: That's not the point. It's not about how many there are. And if it were just me…

Chris: Yeah, I know what you mean. It’s about where is the limit?

Swiss: It's about the logic behind… not the border either, but it's about… I think the theses that we put forward, that's how science works. So, I have… there is inductive and deductive, so to speak, bringing things to fruition. So deductive is, you have—

Chris: Thank you for explaining it, because I have no idea what you are talking about.

Swiss: You know it?

Chris: No, I don’t! That’s why I… please explain it!

Swiss: Ok, so I think deductive is—hey guys, please don't crucify me—one is, so to speak, the derivation from the big picture to the small. So, “Here, this is the thesis, and it works here and there and there”. The other, I think that is deductive (Swiss probably meant to say “inductive” here), is when you say, “I see this example here and this one here and this example. And from all these examples I derive a thesis.” And what I'm trying to say is, “OK guys, we're at the point with sexuality where we say biology doesn't really exist because there are several genders!” Where—

Chris: I don't even know if it is said that they don't exist.

Swiss: Of course, more genders exist!

Chris: No, no, sorry! I don't think anyone is saying biology doesn't exist. I think they just say that mental well-being is more important than biology. That's what I meant earlier. For me it's about respect and I don't think any trans person would say “Biologically speaking, that's not true!”

Swiss: Of course! Bro, you need to have this discussion.

Chris: OK, so let's say I've never met anyone who said, “I was born as a man, and I feel like a woman but I'm now biologically a woman.”

Swiss: You really have to… check it out a bit, this discourse! And even if not, for me the question remains, we do that with sexuality, we use it a bit based on how we feel—which is completely fine! I have to say it again for everyone, for me it's all fine! I want everyone to be happy and feel good! The only question is why it doesn't work, and there are 1,000 good reasons why I say it doesn't work with ethnic groups and origins. As you say, if I suddenly say “I'm Swiss, I'm black! I accuse you of slavery against my ancestors!” everyone says “Hey, what's going on?” But from the moment you say that you have to respect how you feel, it becomes a bit, or rather you have to be careful that it doesn't become silly!

Chris: But that's interesting! Because I've actually never met anyone, or better I've never met a trans woman, who fights against feminism from her point of view—now a woman but actually a biological man. So, I’ve never met anyone who basically denies their original biology and says, “I'm trans!” because trans means… So, if you say you're trans, that's already an admission that you say “I come from there and I'm going there.” But that's interesting! Of course, you always have hardliners! But I've never actually met anyone like that. I'll look into it!

Swiss: I'm sure that many of you are much more involved in the discussion and can say something about it! I would really be happy if people could shed some light on this contradiction between sexuality, ethnic origin and skin color and things like that. Where the difference is and why you feel like it's not a problem here. Of course, you can say that if a man says I feel like a woman, that doesn't hurt anyone! But it does when a white person says he feels like a black person! And now the question is, is that true? Are there women who feel triggered by this?

Chris: Yeees, it hurts, for example, when you see the trans women who win every weightlifting competition. *Swiss laughs a little desperately* Yes, it's true, Swiss! There is one, well, actually several, but this one weightlifter, who is a trans woman, biologically a man, simply beats everyone in these competitions. Or in combat sports.

Swiss: And that, Christian—

Chris: Difficult!

Swiss: —this brings us to biology.

Chris: Yeah, and that makes it difficult!

Swiss: Do you know why that is? Because she has more testosterone due to her body status, what she was born with—

Chris: Yes! Thats normal!

Swiss: —denser bone structure—

Chris: The average—

Swiss: —more muscle mass!

Chris: The average man is simply stronger and bigger than the average woman. That's it.

Swiss: And that brings us to biology!

Chris: Yes! And that is why there is a discussion about whether to introduce a new category in sports. People say that if you arrive at the battlefield as a, I'm exaggerating, 200 kg muscle mountain and beat up all the biological women—sorry but then we need a new category in sports! Then there won't just be women's boxing and men's boxing, but also trans boxing! And that is really—

Swiss: But what about toilets? I was recently in the Bunker (location in Hamburg St. Pauli), I think, there were men and there was FLINTA*.

Chris: FLINTA*?

Swiss: Yes, a FLINTA* toilet.

Chris: What does this mean? I don’t know it.

Swiss: What??

Chris: No, I don’t know it.

Swiss: Hey bro… You don't know what FLINTA* is?

Chris: What does FLINTA* stand for?

Swiss: Wait, I have to… Google it quickly please! FLINTA* refers—

Chris: Unisex is what I know!

Swiss: They're going to stone me! There are now bands that do FLINTA* mosh pits! *Chris asks how to spell it and Swiss spells it*

Chris: “… Stands for women (German Frauen, hence the F), lesbians, inter, non-binary…” Ok, I really don't know that.

Swiss: Um, wow…

Chris: "The asterisk at the end is intended to represent additional variants of genders…"

Swiss: Look, what I was getting at, Christian—

Chris: That means there are… there are women in there, but no men. So, everything, but no men?

Swiss: Exactly!

Chris: Ah, ok. Crazy!

Swiss: And the question that arises for me now is for example, I know a trans person who—

Chris: But that’s not particularly inclusive.

Swiss: No. Look, I know a trans person who is really upset about this term! Because this term mostly only refers to women. So FLINTA* people are mostly read as women. All the others are completely lost in this term, so it's nonsense. But I don't want to talk about that, I can't make a judgment on that. I just want to say, what about this toilet constellation? Men's toilet, FLINTA* toilet? I, as a woman who was also born as a woman and feels like a woman, go to the toilet with another person who also feels like a woman but perhaps physically still has attributes of a man. Do I have the right to feel uncomfortable about that? Or to say that I don't want that?

Chris: I believe everyone has the right to feel uncomfortable with whatever they are doing. That's why I think it's a good solution if there is a female toilet, a male toilet and a toilet for everyone. I don't actually know FLINTA*. I know about this 3-toilet solution. But I think the term is crazy, because when we talk about equal rights, it's obviously crazy if it excludes cis men, but everything else… That's how I understood it!

Swiss: Yeah, yeah, it excludes cis men. Of course.

Chris: I googled it! So, it’s not inclusive at all!

Swiss: No, and that is one reason why I say I don't do a FLINTA* mosh pit at our concerts! Because I feel that emancipation and equality cannot happen by taking men out of the equation! But that it only works if we—

Chris: If we take assholes out of the equation!

Swiss: Exactly! Take assholes out of the equation!

Chris: They exist in every gender! *Makes a play on words and genders the word assholes and makes it feminine to “Arschlöcherinnen*” (because most feminine forms of terms and similar have an *innen at the end in Germany to mean that it is female)

Swiss: I really like that advertising of Volt, or what is the name of this [political] party? Volt?

(Volt is a social liberal, progressive and European federalist small political party in Germany. Volt is committed to education, digitalization and an innovative economy at the local level.)

Chris: Oh, I thought they—

Swiss: Don’t be an asshole!

Chris: I thought they delivered food and now they— (He refers to the food delivery company called "Wolt")

Swiss: Now they also deliver knowledge! On the other hand, sometimes I feel like I'm in the fairy tale “The Emperor's New Clothes”, where the emperor is naked and everyone says he's wearing a nice robe and then the child says “Hey, he's naked!” And sometimes in this discussion I also have the feeling that we… We have to allow people who have questions about this, and in some aspects I'm one of them, to ask these questions!

Chris: Me too, as we saw a few moments ago! I also don’t know every term! And I think you can ask anything! If you ask it respectfully and deal with it and don't prejudge and say: “That's how it is, because that's how I see it!”

Swiss: “Yes because you are shitty and uninformed” and I think all the time that we, people like us, are really open in all directions! So, if you can't convince us with arguments *sneezes, Chris wishes him beauty, both are laughing* If only you had given me a new account! The one [I have] is full!

Chris: Yes, my bank also called to say that my account was full.

Swiss: Bad joke!

Chris: Need a new car, the ashtray is full (Chris jokes that he is so rich, he would buy a new car if the ashtray was full instead of emptying it)!

Swiss: Exactly! Do you understand? So, you lose us along the way in this discussion, you have to say: “Bro, or sis, or whatever in between, you have to… well, we are actually… So, if you can't get us, what about Werner from bla bla and…”

Chris: Dude, it is… the hatred on the internet towards trans people, that is now as mentioned in the ESC-winner this year, or do I have to use the female form? I'll do it in English now, I like to avoid it! Winner this year, winning act this year, was Nemo from Switzerland. Cool name, was chosen like the clown fish from Finding Nemo, they are born male but can later consciously decide to be female.

Swiss: Awesome, bro! That's crazy. But look, that's also a great example of biology, of nature!

Chris: Yeah sure! And Nemo, [the] winner, really cool, we just made a post about it. What kind of comments there are! Up to… well, we block these really abusive people. Then the comments are gone, so you can't read them anymore. Up to the fact that it's satanism and bla bla bla. And the cool thing is, there is a second trans person, Ireland— 

Swiss: Wait a minute, my mother is calling, I have to…

Chris: Yes, greetings to her!

Swiss: She has already hung up; I will call back immediately. We will then go into the forest, to my dad's grave and—

Chris: Does he have a tree grave?

Swiss: No, no, we're going to the cemetery and then we're going for a walk in the forest with Hermine. (Hermine is his Dachshund)

Chris: Where were we? Oh, exactly: how far these hate comments go against trans people and at the end, after the win, he was crowned by the Irish person, also a trans person—it was a really crazy gothic bride who did an exorcism on stage and then he did his victory performance with her crown of thorns ^[2]. Then the Satanism discussions about trans people and homosexuals started again. That it is not wanted in the Bible and this and that and blah. But all I can say is, all of you out there, watch the entry from Switzerland! Nemo with "The Code".

Swiss: Was that also a favorite?

Chris: Yes, one of the favorites alongside Croatia and a few others. But it's the killer!

Swiss: Sometimes you have to look when you're stuck in an argument, in a structure of arguments, which side would people put me on? I find nothing more disgusting than people who have a problem with the fact that trans people exist. You understand? Because I—That’s exactly the crowd that I don’t want. The others are my crowd. Still, I have to be allowed to have questions here and there about it, do you understand?

Chris: Yes, of course; as a heterosexual cis man one HAS to ask!

Swiss: Yeah.

Chris: Otherwise, we aren’t learning anything and best—

Swiss: No, and also to say: “hey, that’s not logical for me, if we are doing this here—”

Chris: Yes.

Swiss: “—and arguing with biology, so to speak, why don’t we do that [other thing]? If this is okay, why is that not—" I—Do you understand? It’s about learning, and we have to see ourselves that we [missing word] this argument—

Chris: One must never be afraid of asking questions.

Swiss: No.

Chris: There is—this phrase “there are no stupid questions” is so overused, but I think only through this we can learn.

Swiss: But I really have to say that, that the people who [feel threatened] by someone who feels like a woman, even though he ^[3] was born with a male body or the other way around or whatever, who feel triggered or threatened by that, these are people whom I want nothing to do with (referring to the transphobes).

Chris: I can tell you a thing or two about that—

Swiss: I don’t want to have them at my concerts, I don’t want them to buy my CDs, to stream my music, I also don’t want them to let my songs play, because to get mad about that and to find them disgusting, to feel threatened by them, I find the most disgusting. But on the other hand, I find that exactly people like us who are completely open, that we also have to be allowed to ask questions about it.

Chris: Yes.

Swiss: And to say: “eh, wait a minute, I don’t quite understand this part”, and to not instantly get shouted down. Because…

Chris: Yes.

Swiss: Folks. I—

Chris: *Yells* “Don’t you know that? Don’t you know that?”

Swiss: No. Yes. I want to be in your crowd. I don’t want anything to do with the other ones, but still, I want to have the opportunity to ask critical questions. Like. Period.

Chris: Critical question, since we’ve just been at Volt, and at politics and at [political] parties:

Swiss: I’m voting AFD, if that’s the question now. (Sarcasm; AFD is one of the most right-wing parties in Germany).

Chris: Yes, yes. No, the—

Swiss: Obviously, Germany first…

Chris: The thing is, I found that very interesting because last—yes, exactly, last time we talked about my idea of an involuntary (mandatory) social year.

Swiss: Yes, very good.

Chris: The thing is, the USJ (short for “unfreiwilliges soziales Jahr”, “involuntary social year”) it is actually [missing word] by the CDU (a conservative Christian party), attention—

Swiss: They’re our people!

Chris: Yes, that’s actually—a VGJ, a “verpflichtendes Gesellschaftsjahr” (“mandatory community year”) is currently being proposed by the CDU, actually for all genders, so not just for conscientious objectors, so not just for men, but it is actually the suggestion to implement something like that, and—

Swiss: I find that good.

Chris: —I read that two days or something after we recorded our last episode.

Swiss: You know that they listen to our stuff.

Chris: Yes.

Swiss: They listen to our stuff…

Chris: They listen to it and say: “Hey! *sings* ‘Swiss and Harms are really there, what they’re saying is always true’, we’re going to use this as an idea.”

Swiss: Cool parties are trying to—

Chris: …to imitate cool people.

Swiss: —[missing word] our podcast, or people who want to become cool are listening to our podcast and let themselves get inspired.

Chris: No, but I have to say about it that at first, I thought, like: “wow! CDU!”

Swiss: Yeah.

Chris: “That is really cool!” The thing is, if you read the small print and you look at—as I said, it’s still very half-baked, there is also no concrete suggestion for it; if you read the small print, it’s not just about a mandatory community year, but thus at the same also a reintroduction of the compulsory military service.

Swiss: *Sighs* Yeees.

Chris: Just that it’s the other way around, so they say: “we—"

Swiss: *Sarcastically* Well, we have to defend ourselves against the Russians, Christian.

Chris: No, but it’s actually that they say: “we need this and this many soldiers per year” and that then basically for everyone who does the mandatory community year, they try to filter who’s going to go to the military.

Swiss: But that’s all okay, do you understand?

Chris: It’s just dangerous superficial knowledge here, but that’s how it is. I just wanted to say by that, the—where I first thought: “CDU, awesome idea”, it’s also about compulsory military service again. So, it is… it has to be viewed from two sides.

Swiss: Yes, but look: the compulsory military service—without having engaged in it much, because I got decommissioned—I think as long as you have the chance to say: “Hey, I don’t want to get—"

Chris: Yes!

Swiss: “—get trained at weapons, I also don’t want to get shouted through the forest by some Sergeants”, okay. But instead, I work in a workshop for the handicapped for one year—do you understand? I find that totally okay, and if you are rather the type to say: “Hey, I want to get trained at the gun and I want to crawl through the mud and I want to get yelled at…” then that’s okay, too!

Chris: Yeah.

Swiss: Right? Unfortunately, we are living in a time that we haven’t seen for a long time, at least here, in which there is the possibility that we as a society—which we are, despite all—get involved in a war.

Chris: Yes.

Swiss: In whatever way. And—I don’t know. There, as well, I’m a friend of  “It’s not all bad and it’s also not all good”.

Chris: No, but I myself could not do that, placing myself there with a weapon in my hand and having to shoot others on my country’s order.

Swiss: Killing for Germany? But that would be the question: would you, to say it very martially—

Chris: … kill for Germany or for your family?

Swiss: —very martially—no, exactly. So, if… where does it stop? So, if the Nazis wanted to raid the neighborhood and—

Chris: You, it is—

Swiss: Would you stand up there, if you had a weapon in your hand, and say: “I’m defending St. Pauli here?” I would do that, for example!

Chris: Let’s say it this way: for me, the limit is reached where I say that my family, my friends, my loved ones…

Swiss: Your bank accounts.

Chris: My bank accounts, before THEY get killed, I think I myself could develop the ability… to go against it by maybe having to kill, that is a completely wild prospect, terrible. But I would not just because, I don’t know, a conflict breaks out and I happen to be a federal army soldier, and I have to go there and be in… wherever for a year, stationed…

Swiss: Where we don’t have any business.

Chris: And that’s just my job now, because I am a soldier, or professional soldier. That’s a whole different ballgame for me! I’m virtually going somewhere on my country’s behalf to establish law and order, or my son gets killed or I defend him with my life and…

Swiss: *Quietly* Yes.

Chris: So, that is a different thing.

Swiss: I think so too. But that begs the question again: would it have been to your advantage if you had learnt how to shoot, do you understand?

Chris: Definitely.

Swiss: These are the things; they are also not my cup of tea at all. I can—with the military, or to work there, or at the police, I wouldn’t be able to—it is so far away from what I could imagine. I just want to say this: these are also luxury problems.

Chris: Yes.

Swiss: Right? So, I don’t know, if you had [lived] in the times of the first World War, or if you are living in Ukraine now, the question doesn’t even come up, whether you want to do military service or something.

Chris: No.

Swiss: There you say: “You’re of this and this age, make sure to report to that place next Monday”, then you get a pistol put in your hand. Do you know this movie, I think it also got nominated for the Oscar, it’s about the first—

Chris: Barbie!

Swiss: No, about the First World War, in Germany.

Chris: 1914? 1918? 19?

Swiss: A relatively new one. And there you also see the young guys [going to] the induction station, and then they are given weapons and things, and clothes, and then they realize that in the washed clothes, there are still other names, so to say, so from fallen ones, and—

Chris: Was it “All Quiet on The Western Front”?

Swiss: “All Quiet on The Western Front”!

Chris: Or was it the Second World War, “All Quiet on The Western Front”?

Swiss: “All Quiet on The Western Front”, I think it was the first one… Or second…?

Chris: Either way, an intense movie! Ultra intense movie!

Swiss: I just want to say with this—exactly, first or second, I just want to say with this, that is a point at which you are then, at which you don’t have the luxury of saying “Eeh!”

Chris: No, of course not.

Swiss: “Cool, you’re all fighting here”, in Ukraine, for example, against Russia, “but I would rather like to work at the sheltered workshop”, but they say: “No, you are of this and this age, you are healthy”—

Chris: Yes, most notably the age is getting lower and lower, if you think back to Hitler’s total war, and the twelve-year-olds were standing there.

Swiss: This.

Chris: This.

Swiss: And I just wanted to say, there again, many of the discussions that we are able to have, luckily, and that bring us forward as a society of course, are stemming from our western luxury, in which we are allowed to be.

Chris: Absolutely.

Swiss: And…

Chris: The luxury of saying: “I do not want to serve at arms”—

Swiss: This.

Chris: —is a luxury, yes.

Swiss: Yes, of course!

Chris: For me, the decision was very, very easy back then, in a sense my mother took it, who said “listen”—she always said that to me as a child—

Swiss: “Boy, I was at war, you don’t want that”.

Chris: No, listen, my mother was born during the war—

Swiss: Yes.

Chris: —1943.

Swiss: *In a hushed voice* Mind-blowing!

Chris: She told me stories, she was thr—two years old, so in the last year of the war, 1945, where one just halfway has the first memories—or things that her mother had told her, of bomb alarms, of cellars, of collapsing houses above them… My mother was so traumatized, she did not speak until she was six. So, from two to six.

Swiss: Crazy.

Chris: And the thing is, her father died in the war. He was a soldier, he was a German, and of course he also was a Nazi, and that is a topic that I want to discuss with you later sometime soon, because that’s also really difficult.

Swiss: Nazi origins of our grandparents?

Chris: Exactly.

Swiss: Bro, I—

Chris: I find that super interesting, but that’s a new can of worms—

Swiss: Ey, let’s do [an episode] about it, because—

Chris: Exactly.

Swiss: There I really have—well, if you can speak of a flex there, bro, my grandfather, a German since—let’s talk about that some time.

Chris: For me as well. Just, what I want to say, she said: “listen, my father died before my birth.”

Swiss: Yes.

Chris: “In the war. And I don’t want the same thing to happen to my son. That is why I am asking you, even if you consider shooting really awesome, do it with water pistols, please don’t join the Federal Army.”

Swiss: Yes.

Chris: And apart from me not being interested in that at all anyway and got disassembled by a hand grenade half a year before my medical examination myself—

Swiss: That’s crazy.

Chris: —the question didn’t even arise, because I had already promised it to my mother.

Swiss: Ey. So, I am with two—my mother was also born in ‘47, post-war child, one can still notice it in certain behaviors of hers…

Chris: Ey, of course, dude. What has—

Swiss: For us it was clear, my parents, both 1968 generation ^[4], but with conviction, for us it was—one doesn’t join the military, and one doesn’t join the police—

Chris: No, my parents, too.

Swiss: —dude. Under no circumstances.

Chris: My parents are a bit older than yours; [they] were complete hippies of course, full bore, dude.

Swiss: One doesn’t go there. For me, it was never on the horizon for me, that I would have said: “oh, maybe I could imagine doing that”. If I told my parents: “I want to join the military”, they would have been really disappointed. Luckily, I also smoked weed like a chimney and…

Chris: *laughs*

Swiss: …had an entirely different vision of what I wanted to do than to hang around at the barracks. But cool. Ey!

Chris: Since you’re talking about smoking weed, I also would like to tell one more funny thing towards the end, or a small tip, because we are already through here timewise: one can listen to the podcast in different speeds on Spotify.

Swiss: I know, I saw it.

Chris: From half to three-and-a-half times speed, and if you listen to it at half speed, we both just sound so extremely stoned.

Swiss: Yeah.

Chris: For a long car ride that is so unbelievably funny, so please folks, you have to listen to everything again.

Swiss: Everything once more.

Chris: And the cool thing is also, an episode lasts for two hours then.

Swiss: Yeah right, then you have even more of it. And I also want to get something off my chest: Chris and I are talking with one voice when we’re saying we don’t do it to build a big source of income with the podcast or something.

Chris: I think we already talked about the payment of the podcast. *Laughs*

Swiss: Exactly! That is—really, we’re really doing it because we…

Chris: Want to suck up to the people.

Swiss: Nooo…! Like to talk to each other, and when I’m hearing things then like people coming up to us and telling us: “ey, you also said that in the podcast, that was really nice for me to hear that” or something, that really means something to us. Because… yeah, I believe that is like going on tour, [getting] the feedback from people and noticing that we somehow, with the things that one is thinking oneself and that one is talking about, that is like songs that one releases. (This sentence is just as unstructured in German).

Chris: Yes.

Swiss: To realize one is not alone, but there are people out there who also feel it and whom you, with what you just said, may have articulated it for the first time. That they’re saying: “Yes, I feel just the same”. That is really a very, very nice thing.

Chris: And I enjoy that on one side we are musically, and with what we are doing—somehow, it’s so similar, and still so different, and it’s so different people and one can actually create a cross-over like that. It would be way less interesting if we both fished in exactly the same musical waters with the exact same people.

Swiss: Yes.

Chris: Again, that connects by now very huge fan crowds, each one of us has at least a hundred fans, that connects them again.

Swiss: Totally.

Chris: You know what I mean? That connects people in a way, and I find that totally awesome. And it makes me totally happy.

Swiss: And that is what it’s about. I saw that on tour again, to get to the end here, our Sippschaften (“clanships”, organized groups of Missglückte Welt fans), who took so much bashing over the last years, and we see them how they’re just meeting up again at the concerts, and that doesn’t have any excluding aspects, people are joining them, and they chill together and help each other and car rides are offered and sleeping berths. In the end it’s all about being able to have a nice community with other people. That was also one of the nicest and greatest “successes”, in quotation marks, on tour for me, too, to see that all those who were on the road with us are feeling comfortable in this community. And being happy to experience that together with these people. And I feel the same, and that’s the very, very most important thing. All the money, Christian, that’s so important to you, the fame…

Chris: *Chuckles* It’s always so hilarious how you’re always shifting your issues—

Swiss: My issues! *Laughs*

Chris: —onto me like that, dude, for the people out there.

Swiss: All the cash you will talk about when the podcast will be over in a moment.

Chris: I’m noticing that you totally have a need to talk and actually want to tell the people something, but you always shift that onto me and somehow got it off of your chest then but…

Swiss: Look—

Chris: But when—I’m happily everything that I have to be for you.

Swiss: *Sighs*

Chris: Werner. For you to be happy.

Swiss: That—I will get back to that after the mics have gone out.

Chris: Okay.

Swiss: Ey.

Chris: Yes.

Swiss: Thank you for this hour, I hope the people are able to write constructively in the comments, please no hate, please no agitation, uhm…

Chris: Especially since none of it is meant maliciously, but we are asking—in this case I really have to say, we’re just asking questions!

Swiss: Yes! So, please help—

Chris: There is really the need for coaching here and there.

Swiss: Help us to bring light into this darkness for us, into this confusion, and I can only say it, Chris especially, and me too, we want to learn, we want to know things better that we don’t know or get new insights.

Chris: I’ll bring two things with me next time. For one, I also got this AI now, I’ll bring a new intro; I’m up for power metal next time.

Swiss: Awesome!

Chris: Because today we had the other Don Cossacks intro, so I’ll bring power metal.

Swiss: I find that good. We can always switch, bro.

Chris: Yes, exactly.

Swiss: That’s fun.

Chris: Always with the same lyrics though, with the…

Swiss: Right, the lyrics.

Chris: “Swiss and Harms are really there, they don’t always get along, shalalalala, what they’re saying is always true”.

Swiss: *Bellows* “Swiss and Harms are really getting along” *imitates metal guitar sounds*

Chris: No, power metal is rather with this…

Both: *Imitating power metal singing*

Chris: And super-fast. And WAH! Diddeliddelup! What I’ll also bring, I’d say I’ll bring a few photographs of my grandpa next time—

Swiss: Yes.

Chris: —in a Nazi soldier uniform, and we will talk about family legacy…

Swiss: Shall I bring medals from my grandpa?

Chris: Do it. Do it.

Swiss: Quickly, just to give a teaser, my—

Chris: That is an intense topic, where you think it’s your family, but they are the hardest, most extreme—

Swiss: My grandpa was a highly decorated fighter pilot in the Galland squadron ^[5], until the end of his life, that had been a huge critical point between my mother and him, and a huge problem, this guilt that she somewhat felt, and the way he adhered to it. So, ey, let’s do that!

Chris: We can gladly do that. It’s similar for me.

Swiss: Big topic.

Chris: My grandpa also sat on the plane and got shot down over Russia.

Swiss: Harsh.

Chris: So, that’s a good—

Swiss: Nice closing word! Let’s make it a topic for next time. Alright. Till then, folks. Ciao.

 Swiss: Bye!

 

 

[1] “Platt” means both “done, exhausted” as well as “flat”, and in some regions in Northern Germany the language spoken is called “Plattdeutsch”, literally “Flat German”, it’s not a dialect but a language on its own.

 

[2] The German language has no gender-neutral pronoun for people, which is why Chris uses male/female pronouns here. Both Irish (born as female) and Swiss (born as male) representatives at ESC 2023 are identified as non-binary, not trans, as Chris called them by mistake.

 

[3] Swiss uses wrong pronouns and incorrect terms a few times throughout the stream, but he does not do so maliciously. We have kept this in for the sake of accuracy.

 

[4] The left-wing, anti-capitalistic, anti-war part of the generation around the protests of 1968: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_of_1968

 

[5] Led by Adof Galland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Galland

 

 

Translation: Margit Güttersberger, Elisabeth Czermack, Jeany Fischer, Jari Witt

German Proofreading: Jari Witt

 English Proofreading: Helen Forsyth