Swiss + Harms #5 : Du bist ein Vorurteil
Episode 5 – You are a preconception
Swiss und Harms – Zwischen Tour und Angel
(translator’s note: in German you literally say, “between door and hinge” for “in passing,” they altered it to “between tour and hinge”)
Description of the episode:
In episode 5, Swiss and Chris talk late at night about their own prejudices and how to avoid falling for their own tricks. They also reveal which superstars have turned out to be total disappointments and how they try to stay human. It's worth tuning in! In any case, don't forget to subscribe and leave us 5 stars!
Chris: Moin! (northern German for “hello”). So, welcome to episode 5, to Swiss and Harms. I'm here in Reit im Winkl (village in the South of Germany) right down in southern Germany—and where are you?
Swiss: Hmm, I’m in kitchen (he purposely leaves out the article), at the top, on the fifth floor—
Chris: *laughs*
Swiss: —eating delicious Pecorino cheese—
Chris: Yeah.
Swiss: —have been working out, I’m top fit. Look. You know me, I'm more of a reserved type, right, but today has just been a bombastic day for me.
Chris: Yeah.
Swiss: On all fronts I have—you know how much I love the word "fronts"—
Chris: Yeah.
Swiss: —delivered, and now I’m sitting here, and you reach me while I’m writing hits, Christian. That’s…Chris: Awesome! I briefly wanted to—before we drift off into the adult zone—I’m not alone, Mika is here with me, he briefly wanted to say “hello” to you before he says “goodnight” to me.
Swiss: You have…
Mika: Hello!
Swiss: Hello Mika, how are you, everything cool?
Mika: Yes, I’m doing fine.
Chris: Yeah, we are the Ski-Bunnies, we have been skiing already; there’s not that much snow here anymore, but it still works a bit.
Swiss: I thought you are in Austria.
Chris: Well, let’s put it this way: we go skiing in Austria, but are staying in Germany; it’s so close to the border here.
Swiss: Ah!
Chris: I have been jogging, and I crossed the border today while I was jogging, and I thought—the day before yesterday while I was skiing, I also passed the border; there was an open barrier, which could theoretically be closed, and I thought to myself, “Friends, how cool is that, how privileged are we to live in the EU! Just try to cross the border from Russia to Finland on skis.”
Swiss: Mm-hmm. This is how our mountain troops used to go to other countries. I don’t want to go into this any further, Christian, but…
Chris: No. Exactly. I now say goodnight to Mika.
Mika: Yep.
Swiss: Do that.
Chris: Goodnight, dear, see you tomorrow in the morning on the ski slope. Daddy must now earn a shitload of money with his podcast.
Swiss: I briefly need to tell you something about the hustle.
Chris: Yeah, tell me!
Swiss: I told myself—maybe, briefly for the people—I’m a total engineer (he uses the words “tech bower”), truly from another planet, and Pat got me this microphone especially, it says “tech bower” there on the microphone.
Chris: *laughs*
Swiss: He said to me like to some kind of idiot: "Hey, you download this program, it's actually self-explanatory!" So, I downloaded it to my iPad—
Chris: But you are recording right now, aren’t you?
Swiss: Yes, I am recording. I hope so.
Chris: Okay. Okay. Good.
Swiss: The surprise will be waiting for us at the end. And then I got the iPad, where I had downloaded it and checked it out, where I had already sent you a demo track, “this is what it's going to sound like”—you said “cool!”
Chris: Yes.
Swiss: I forgot it in the rehearsal room.
Chris: *laughs out loud*
Swiss: I have now downloaded it to my ancient Acer Computer, a different program, and it looks quite ok, and hey—people must also come to terms with the fact that we're both just crazy international travellers all the time, or rather you are, and I am here in my kitchen…
Chris: in GERMANY.
Swiss: Yes, in Germany.
Chris: Yes, but if you have such an awesome old Acer computer, then it still sounds cool in analogue, it still works with tape, it still has a real tube saturation.
Swiss: Exactly. And it’s also very big, right?
Chris: Yeah.
Swiss: You can also use it to shoot down Russian missiles, which was also the decisive factor for me as to why I bought it back in 1800.
Chris: Yes, I'm also sorry that I am so… so far, so much… away so much, but I think it's going to happen more often this year, that either you're on tour or I am. Apart from that, we decided—the podcast is now called "Between Tour and Hinge", and we must do that justice somehow now.
Swiss: Yes. Tell me now, Christian, how are you really doing?
Chris: I'm feeling awesome now, because for the first time I feel like I can really relax after a long time, and I've also freed myself from this compulsion to say “I'm going on a skiing vacation, I must go on the slopes every day now”. I wasn't on the slopes at all today, I just didn't care today. I was in the—we've rented a chalet here, a house, we're here as a family with seven people, so you have real family time. There's a table tennis table in the garden and so on, and the barbecue is set up and it's kind of wintry still but sunny and—I mean, you know how it is in the mountains, and—I hate it when you go on vacation and then you get all stressed out about having so much time and having to travel and experience so much, but—I don't give a shit, this feeling of "I don't give a shit". I haven't had that for a long time and that's why I feel really fantastic now! And how are you doing?
Swiss: That would be… just briefly, that would be a case for… you know those shirts at the rest stop: "I don't have to do shit!" Perhaps for a vacation as a motto shirt.
Chris: Yeah.
Swiss: Just see if you can get one of these, bro. “I don’t have to do shit!”
Chris: I also always found this expression cool: "If you say A—you don't have to do anything!"… I always found that…
Swiss: This! Look, I was always jealous, you know, I've already told you that; I've now established our hiking vacation in autumn with a few buddies—
Chris: You have other buddies, too?
Swiss: Well, “buddies,” bro, I give them money, so they hang out with me.
Chris: Okay, good.
Swiss: How else would you describe friendship… that you like them or something? I just give them money and I hang out with them; I've arranged it with their parents that they can come with me and—yes, I pay them. And then we want to go to the mountains in the fall, we always do that. Last time we were in Oberstaufen (village in the South of Germany), and we always went hiking in Austria. Man, the mountains… you know, the mountains, the forests, the sea—those are just mystical places. And—
Chris: Can you decide—if you say mountains or sea, because—for me the answer is clear, but can you decide?
Swiss: Hmmm, for me it depends on the time of year. In summer, for example, I'm more likely to be by the sea, and I find that in the fall, you know, even if the weather starts to get a little bit “stubborn”, I think the mountains are simply unbeatable.
Chris: Yes, but imagine if someone came along now and said: "Look, it’s about old age.”
Swiss: Yeah?
Chris: And you only can decide between a house in the mountains or a house by the sea?
Swiss: I think I would go to the sea then.
Chris: That’s the same with me.
Swiss: Yeah. I would go to the sea then.
Chris: Something always drags me to the sea, I don’t know, it’s just simply…
Swiss: Yes, as you know, I'm always in Turkey for a little longer every year for family reasons.
Chris: Yeah.
Swiss: And it must be said, the Aegean coast there, everything south of Izmir, Kuşadası, this corner, it's a—man, it's a "kissed" spot of earth too; the water is simply fantastic and I'm also—well, Martin is in Thailand at the moment and is having a really good time, but—
Chris: Yeah.
Swiss: I don't always have to travel that far, you know? That's my feeling a bit too. Man—
Chris: I only need to go to St. Peter or to Scharbeutz (both communities in Northern Germany, by the sea) or I like to be on Sylt Island, in the nature; I don’t care about the Jet Set there, but I mean dunes and beach and sand.
Swiss: Yeah!
Chris: This is just awesome.
Swiss: That’s why—the sea simply has something—as I said, it’s a mystical place, too, and—
Chris: But do you know… sorry, what I have never asked you before…
Swiss: What is it?
Chris: I know you are from Switzerland and grew up in Hamburg, but I have never asked you: when did you move to Hamburg?
Swiss: I was born here.
Chris: Oh, you were born here! Your parents are—your father is Swiss.
Swiss: My father was Swiss, and he came here as an actor.
Chris: Oh, I thought you were born there and moved here as a young guy.
Swiss: No, no. My father—
Chris: —fled.
Swiss: I was—I was a child refugee.
Chris: *laughs out loud*
Swiss: From… from… uhm, Saint-Tropez. No, I was… my father attended the acting school in Munich back then, that was a huge drama, he came from a super conservative Swiss family, and now the son wants to become an actor. He was accepted into this ultra-difficult or very prestigious Falkenberg School at the time and then ended up at the Schauspielhaus (theatre) in Hamburg, and that's where he met my mother, who was also there. And that’s how my parents got to know each other, and a year later my mother was pregnant. My mother has been in Hamburg since she was 15, and—so, exactly! Strictly speaking, I'm not a native Hamburg citizen.
Chris: Yeah.
Swiss: You know, you're only a real Hamburg citizen from the third generation onwards, that is—
Chris: Oh, is that the case?
Swiss: —my daughter is a real Hamburg citizen.
Chris: Okay, then I’m not a real Hamburg citizen either, as my father comes from Dessau (he says that in a Saxonian dialect).
Swiss: Dessau! Okay.
Chris: And my mother from… fuck! It’s not Chemnitz (town in Eastern Germany), it is… I’ll add it later.
Swiss: So, in your heart you are an Eastern German.
Chris: Well, in a way, my parents are both war children; my father was born in 1940, my mother in 1943, they fled to the north during the war.
Swiss: Yeah, right.
Chris: Towards Hamburg, because they thought nothing would happen there, and then Hamburg was completely bombed.
Swiss: Yeah.
Chris: They did survive and got to know each other at the North Sea Coast in Büsum (community in Northern Germany), when my mother was—
Swiss: I have just recently been in Büsum, as I have told you, with the boys.
Chris: Exactly, right—they met when my mother was 18 and my father was 21. Two years later they married, as back then you were only allowed to move in together when you were of legal age, unless you got married. You only were of legal age at 21.
Swiss: Weird.
Chris: And they wanted to move in together, that’s why they got married so early. This year they celebrate their 60th wedding anniversary. I don’t even know what kind of anniversary that is—Wooden Anniversary or Diamond with a heart.
Swiss: You say, “Masha Allah” here in Northern Germany (Arabic expression to express respect and appreciation to a person or an event).
Chris: *laughs*
Swiss: Seriously, I'm very happy, that's something very, very nice. You have to say, they are these—I have the feeling that nowadays, because you can—
Chris: Cottbus! Sorry, it was Cottbus. My mother is from Cottbus. (town in Eastern Germany).
Swiss: By people being so… you know, it's so easy to meet new people and somehow—people somehow so—you know, love is so easy to get now in a way.
Chris: Yeah.
Swiss: And that's why people are like that—you know, I know couples for whom everything goes great for two years and then there's the first argument—and they can't stand it. At the first complication, they break up straight away and—that's still the old generation, you know? Especially when you get married, they say "through thick and thin, through good times and bad".
Chris: People were also committed differently back then, so I once read that this Tinder generation and this "We're just going to start something together somehow", and then at some point you start to define what you have there. There's actually something really nice about that, but this commitment right from the start, that you see someone and recognize that this is somehow my kind of person, this question—it sounds so stupid now—"Do you want to be my girlfriend, yes, no, maybe?"—that doesn't really exist anymore, but you just get to know each other somehow, usually online, you fuck a bit and at some point you ask yourself: “do we have to give the whole thing a name or not and is there love or not?”
Swiss: Yes.
Chris: That has totally changed. What was the case with my parents—the question didn't even arise. They got to know each other and then it was clear, this is it!—and that was it.
Swiss: Yes, sure. Yes, if something comes about through fucking, then you always must think about it—do we have to give it a name now?
Chris: Exactly. What kind of relationship is it, what connects us?
Swiss: No, I meant, what… okay, my joke got fucked here, bro.
Chris: Oh, you wanted to make a joke here? I was totally serious.
Swiss: You’re so serious. You always become so serious when you’re in the mountains. What does come about through fucking then? Children come about, and I wanted to make a little joke about it, but well. Christian, ey!
Chris: Back then she said, “Don’t! Use the other hole, one gets pregnant from this!”—that’s what happens.
Swiss: *laughs* What I want to talk about with you today—
Chris: Yeah, go ahead.
Swiss: Yes, well, I of course have thought about it—you know how I was so cross about the fact that we were doing this here so late—
Chris: Sorry, may I—may I briefly—there's one thing that's very important to me, because I've had a few messages saying that I always talk so much about Mika, whether he wants me to—and I wanted to say very briefly that of course I pay attention to things like that. My son will soon be 13, and of course I ask him if he wants to be a subject in this podcast, and he has told me exactly what he thinks is okay for me to say and what not to say, and I mean—with Rosa it's like this, she's just smaller, you have to use your common sense, but you can ask an almost-teenager about these things. So, for the people out there, please assume that if I tell you something about my son, he'll think it's cool. And I know exactly where the boundaries are. I just wanted to say that briefly, because otherwise these messages will keep coming in.
Swiss: With Rosa, I really hope that she finally starts to push her TikTok account a bit now that she's 4 years old.
Chris: I agree with that. I already follow her.
Swiss: I made it really clear to her that "when you're 10, dad doesn't want to work anymore!"
Chris: *laughs out loud*
Swiss: "You get me. Make sure you get your TikTok… go there, learn a few dances by heart, we’ve got to push it a bit.” And—
Chris: Martial arts.
Swiss: Martial arts. Exactly. And that’s where we get—
Chris: Right, and that’s what I wanted to say briefly.
Swiss: And then we get to the topic, right, as I already said, I was a bit cross, as I thought, “Why that late? Christian is on the ski slope the whole day and I have to work here all day long, and in the evening he wants to do the podcast”—but I have just been doing sports, and I went there—
Chris: Ballet.
Swiss: —Ballet, right. And I wanted to talk to you about something that concerns both of us, I think, as people who think and talk about other people, and of course somehow also concerns us as people who are in the public eye in a certain way, perhaps more than others.
Chris: Yeah.
Swiss: And as you know, I've been doing martial arts again for a few months—uhm, no, ballet—
Chris: Yes.
Swiss: —and I do this in an association where there are a lot of police officers. I wasn't aware that this was the case, I would have... Yes, I don't want to say too much now. In any case, I wasn't that aware of it, and that's totally blatant because there I—
Chris: You fell in love with a police officer! That’s something you can tell me in private, but not here, dude!
Swiss: Hellooo? Can it become any more romantic?
Chris: While hitting each other’s faces.
Swiss: The punk and the Meter Maid (he says “Politesse” which is an old, somewhat insulting expression for a female Police officer).
Chris: Yeah, cool.
Swiss: Right. I’m doing sports there, and I got to know really nice people there, and some of them also know who I am and what I do, and what I have said about the police as an institution in the past, but they are pretty cool with that, they are like—I don’t know, if you remember it, I have—I still know from my childhood, do you know these old grumpy cops, that constable who is always moaning, you cannot even talk to him?
Chris: Yes, of course. Like the janitor back at school.
Swiss: Exactly! Just some turd bird. And there are so many young people there, some of them are funny, and that's when I realized what a… yes, how much I have dehumanized police officers as people over a long period of time.
Chris: Because of your general prejudices.
Swiss: Exactly! Of course, it's not just prejudice, it's also things that have happened to me.
Chris: Yes of course, but if you generalize from things that have happened to you with other police officers, then you are kind of pre-judging individual people, that's what you mean.
Swiss: Exactly!
Chris: Exactly.
Swiss: Despite all this, I am of course of the opinion that, by and large, people who join the police already have a certain affinity for weapons, an affinity for—
Chris: For power.
Swiss: Exactly, to be able to exercise power and so on and so forth, but that’s not the only way it is. I've met some very cool people here and I'm so surprised at how likeable they are. And the great thing is… right, I've had some pretty bad experiences in my past—some of them myself, friends of mine, also us in the group—and I still remember the G20 summit, for example, which was one of the highlights of my aversion to the police, there was this "Welcome to Hell" demonstration.
Chris: Right, I have been there, too.
Swiss: Exactly. And then they immediately set up water cannons like idiots and because 22 people somehow didn't take off their face masks, they just crashed into them.
Chris: Blindly hitting at little girls in the first row.
Swiss: Exactly. And I remember a platoon leader, who, after they had totally thrown themselves into the masses, stood there on the intersection; I think he was from Saxony-Anhalt (German federal state) or Saxony (another German federal state), he was definitely an Eastern German platoon leader, and he was screaming “There you see, how we fucked these cunts here, blah… they can’t do anything!” And we stood there, and then someone shouted, “You are the really cool guy,” and we started to laugh about him and to applaud mockingly, and he went, “You guys are up next!”—and I thought, “Wow. You’re at work here. And you just don’t manage to handle your hatred for leftists and for demonstrators at least in a professional way.”
Chris: Yes, or maybe not to have it at all. But to really say "I'm responsible for safety here, which means everyone's safety."
Swiss: Exactly. That was the way it was for me… that also showed me very well how I always feel about it. I think about it now, at that moment he dehumanized us as demonstrators, of course, he didn't treat us like human beings. If I assume that every police officer is an asshole as a human being, I dehumanize them too. On the other hand, if you think about it, I think you also have to make a—there are always two people—one as a private person and one as part of the pack. And I still take a very, very critical view of the police as an institution. An institution that can exercise so much power and violence, that monitors itself, that's a joke.
Chris: You simply have no monitoring authority. There is no board of directors or union supervisor or anything like that.
Swiss: No, there's the Internal Investigations Department and that's kind of pointless. It's just like when the tax office—
Chris: As a private individual, you can't call someone and say: "I'm having trouble with the police". The police-police is simply missing.
Swiss: It's like when the tax office somehow says to me: "Yes, we're going to check you now", and I'm like "No, you don't have to. Here, my mom checking it again. Don't worry about it.".
Chris: Nah, not in the mood.
Swiss: I think my… well, I'm not someone who believes we need anarchy, because then it becomes the right of the strongest. And I think there has to be something like a regulatory body, but I think the solution can only be that there is an independent authority or a committee that can decide on a wide variety of social issues, like a court of aldermen, so here, the housewife, the pensioner, the lawyer who no longer works, a policeman… so you see, a colorful potpourri of society that you can turn to as a citizen.
Chris: There are indeed nations that have different police forces for different occasions, so whether it's America or Italy. There you have the police and the Carabinieri and so on, but I don't think you get any further than an individual citizen. The system is already there, it's split up and not very monopolistic like ours, but I know what you mean, you don't have anyone you can ask if the police fuck you.
Swiss: And that's understandable to a certain extent, you don't piss on your own business, of course, and G20 was just… so you and I both saw how it was hammered and when you hear that 50 cases were opened and they were all dropped and you find reports about right-wing chat groups where people were there and nothing happens, then you have to say, "Hey guys, don't be surprised that people are skeptical of the police, that in many places it really turns into hate."
Chris: Have you ever brought this up with your training partners?
Swiss: No, I'm taking the piss. There are always those dolls where you practice this "ground and pound" and then you kick the dolls in the head and say, "Police Hamburg, bam.". Of course, as I said, it's like everything else, when you get to know each other and when you find a bridge, and for me that's usually humor, that's why I don't think much of this pseudo-seriousness in such discourses and I believe that a healthy sense of humor always builds bridges. And as always, when we can laugh together, about each other and with each other and about the other person and about me, then boundaries are always built, which is why I don't believe in all these topics—
Chris: Bridges.
Swiss: Yes. What did I say?
Chris: Borders.
Swiss: As a German, it’s all about that border-building thing. *chuckles*
Chris: Yeah, of course…
Swiss: No, and also with all the discussions: racism, sexism and so on and so forth, I think if we allow each other a bit more humor and if it wasn't so seriously judgmental and moralizing, but with a bit of humor, I think we would get a lot further. And I think it would be a much nicer discourse than it sometimes is now, because it is so bitter, so hostile.
Chris: But the thing is quite fundamental… I have a few things to say about it. Firstly about prejudices in general, but also about the difference between institutions and private individuals. For example, I still have a huge problem with institutionally run religions and the oppression that takes place. So, sexual oppression or an apparatus of power through fear. Catholicism for example, but that doesn't mean that I have a problem with every Catholic. If he is happy through his faith and leaves me alone and doesn't try to convert me, I don't try to convert him and I as an atheist agnostic, which is actually the most open you can be, that I say, "I don't believe in God, but I don't claim that he doesn't exist. I don't claim that I know." I have to be so open, I go up to everyone and say, "Hey, I'll let you have your religion." And I see it similarly with the police apparatus and the police officer as an individual. Of course I can have a problem with the institutions, but I don't have to demonize the private individual as such. That's one thing. And the other thing, as far as prejudices in general are concerned: what I've learned over the years, and I've learned it very, very hard. Or rather, I'm still learning, because I'm still making the mistake. I lectured for 15 years at the SAE in Hamburg, which is a sound engineering university in the broadest sense, and had, I don't know, 2000 students over the years. And every time a new course started with 30 people, 20 people, 50 people, there were a few faces in there who for whatever reason, I thought at the beginning that they were tossers. I thought they were shit, which is incredibly unprofessional as a lecturer and also totally antisocial of me as a person. And I always found that the ones I thought were the stupidest at the beginning were the coolest afterwards. And some of the guys I thought were the coolest ended up being real wankers. But I thought to myself, I have to start learning. Every six months a new course starts and I keep making the same mistake and the next time… The other day I realized that we were at the Eurovision Song Contest, we were at the preliminary round last year as a band, where we won and then went to the ESC. This year we were at the preliminary decision again, just on the TV show, both times Florian Silbereisen was there. And I just found the guy so annoying because of the way I saw him on TV, the way he talks and the way he stands there. And I thought, he must be a really nasty turd. Man, this guy is one of the nicest and straightest people I've met in show business. I can't tell you anything about his attitude, about his values, we didn't get that close, but I have to say that he was ahead of me backstage. He approached me with complete openness and complete friendliness, while I approached him with the feeling, "Oh man, there's Schwulian Silberstern…" (“Schwul” in German means “gay” and “Silber Stern” means “silver star”, so he made a wordplay of his name to make fun of him) and then I realized, shit, man, he's cool to me right now and I'm not cool to him. What kind of ass am I anyway? And I'm always preaching openness and empathy and stuff like that and then sometimes I just don't manage it myself and I get so annoyed. And I'm not actually allowed to say that, but maybe I just have to say it to make people realize that no matter how much I preach it, I keep falling into this prejudice trap myself, even though I don't really want to and even though I'm aware that people do that and I do too and I don't want to do it.
Swiss: But I think that issues like racism… I think everyone has a bit of prejudice based on things like race and so on and so forth. I'm firmly convinced of that.
Chris: Well, depending on how you grow up. You simply can't do anything about certain things. You have to beat that out of yourself over the years.
Swiss: I don't think you have to and can beat it out. I think the most important thing is that you are aware of it. That you can observe yourself and say, "Hey, listen, there are three Sinti and Roma with me in the train compartment right now," and you notice how you take your shoulder bag forward and realize that it's some kind of implanted, deep thought, like, "Hey, they could now—
Chris: You have learned "they are pickpockets."
Swiss: —they could be stealing now. And to realize, ey, what a judgmental, disgusting statement that is. I think that's the most important thing. And I think it's the most important thing in life not to get down on yourself with all your prejudices and all your faults and so on. Because that's what we do all the time, we fall prey to ourselves. And I think if you reflect on that… so all these people who always say, “I have no prejudices”, they’re often the worst. And I think that’s a bit like this quote, “I know that I don’t know anything.” And everyone who claims to be infallible are usually the ones who have no humility towards their own character, because if you have humility towards your own character, then you know, "Hey, I have prejudices that are made up of lots of things and I'm not perfect and so on and so forth," and it's all about reflecting on yourself. And there's one more thing I wanted to touch on what you said earlier: Catholicism and so on and so forth. Where my problem always starts with people is when they either define me or themselves by just one thing. So, I don't know, "Swiss is just the musician," "Chris is just the guy who wears make-up," "I'm just the trans person," "This and this is my sexuality." That really annoys me, for example, because I always think, "It's not a problem, the main thing is that you feel comfortable being the person you want to be."
Chris: Here we are again with "change yourself!" and you can always be anything.
Swiss: Yes, but don't make it your only attribute. Do you know? Some people put this thing in the shop window where I think, "Ok, that's fine, you feel like you're in the wrong body…" that's totally fine with me, that's no problem for me and if you want me to address you, born male, as her, no problem. I have no problem with that. But please let's find another level that's not just about that, because I don't think it's just about my heterosexuality either or… do you understand a bit what I mean?
Chris: I understand what you mean, but social media also shows us that we have to categorize ourselves. You create this profile and it basically requires you to say a few things about yourself and that doesn't make it any easier in a society like this to not want to categorize yourself, to feel like you have to do it. That's probably a topic in itself.
Swiss: But then you're also falling for yourself and the story again. And I think we need to take up this kind of reflection because… human beings are so multifaceted, have so many dimensions and of course sexuality is one of them and faith and whatever else. It always annoys me when people make such a fuss about their nationality. Yes, ok bro, you're prouder of this and that. So I'm always asked: "yeah, you're only against Germans." No, I think everyone is shit. Bro, I think flags suck. Digga, why are you bothering me with your fucking flags?
Chris: *laughing* I'm fine with that… we'll have to have this discussion sometime please, because we've had so much experience with flags, especially at the ESC. But that's a topic for a whole hour.
Swiss: I think that sucks. And I think it sucks when people are like "I'm a proud this and a proud that"…
Chris: I would like to return briefly to the subject of prejudice. Let's put our money where our mouth is… I didn't make it with you without prejudices either. We were kind of thrown together back then, from… I don't know. How did that happen again? How did you jump into the studio with me?
Swiss: I wanted to record a feature part about our mutual friend, Eric Burton, for for 8kids[1], which he managed at that time, and I said, "Ok, I'd be happy to do that, but you have to organize a studio for me."
Chris: One that is as cheap as possible…
Swiss: As cheap as possible, with trashy people and an absolutely average sound.
Chris: MC Average and DJ Mediocre.
Swiss: I'm with you, Digga, push it to the mediocre. And that's how I ended up with you. And… yes, tell me what prejudices you had.
Chris: Exactly… nah, I just knew you… so I didn't put two things together: I didn't know that Swiss & Die Andern and Swiss are more or less the same thing. I once knew Swiss & Die Andern from the Kiez from the posters that were hanging in the Kaiserkeller[2] at the time and I thought ,"I don't know, is this some kind of right-wing rock band?" because I hadn't seen at first that the S's at the back of "Swiss" are actually three 6's with the S at the beginning. I just thought it was another band that somehow shone with a cool SS look, but it sounded very punky. Then I did some research and realized, "Oh well, some punk band, whatever." Some kind of bawl punk, I thought. Just stamped.
Swiss: Bawl punk?
Chris: Yes, so "Shalala, we're boozing, boozing," I thought.
Swiss: You've done a pretty shitty job of informing yourself, my dear.
Chris: Exactly, I did some quick and shitty research and immediately formed a preconception. Here we are again. And then I still knew you as, I've said it before, a towel rapper from Aggro Berlin[3] and I knew a few of your solo songs and the Buddy Ogün (a German Comedian) thing, which I thought was funny, but I thought, "Ok, then there's another guy who talks like that *imitates a slang that is typical for the German Hip Hop and Rap scene*, he can't say ‘I’ (German: ‘Ich’), he says "isch" with a ‘sh’ and stuff and talks like that and is a bit hollow and raps a bit.
Chris: And then you're sitting there on the couch, before we started to work, and I thought, "Fuck, this guy is so smart and he's talking me down with every sentence. That's a great guy!" He stands in front of the microphone and I really have to praise him a little here—you are one of the people who have such incredibly good timing in front of the microphone! This micro-timing that happens between the beats that you can count out. If you then double yourself, that one track sounds like the other. Nailed it, as if you were copying it. And then I thought,”Wow, that’s just quality and the guy is cool. I hope I do something else with him!” And that’s when I got on your nerves and said I want to produce Swiss & Die Andern!”
Swiss: And that’s what I—
Chris: But I had a fucking prejudice at the beginning!
Swiss: Yes, and I have to say, I didn’t even have that on my radar. But I often feel that way. I didn’t know that much about punk rock and metal anyway. And then I was with you and then you told me, "Hey, I think your stuff is pretty cool, I think you could get some more out of it." I thought it was so cool that you didn't get on my nerves but stuck with it! Then we did this thing with Ferris (German musician, formerly of Deichkind).
Chris: That was the test balloon, so to speak.
Swiss: Exactly!
Chris: That “Phoenix aus der Klapse” thing (a side project by Ferris and Swiss. EPs released in 2019 and 2023. Chris was a composer, producer and played cello, Nik played drums in some songs and Pi, guitar).
Swiss: In this respect, I really had no prejudices. And—
Chris: —You see, you're just the better person! What shall I say…
Swiss: No, I’m not! I have to say of course I have prejudices. But when I click through my circle of friends and the people I deal with in my head, I really do have people from all walks of life, all levels of education, all sexual orientations and whatever else. There are 2-3 things I don't like about people. The first is stinginess—I find people who are stingy—stinginess says more about you than “you just don’t want to share,” it’s more you don't see yourself as part of a community and you don't care that the community… that everyone is doing well!
Chris: Stinginess is definitely not cool! (reference to an advertising slogan of a German electronics store, it says “Geiz ist geil!”)
Swiss: No! You put yourself above others and somehow you feel more important. And what I don’t like—
Chris: —That ruins every friendship, right.
Swiss: Absolutely! And what I don't like is when people kick downwards and hunch upwards. So I’m always—
Chris: *speaks in a sarcastic tone* Ok, I’m sorry…
*both laughing*
Swiss: No but… you know… I’m really… you can ask anyone and you know it yourself—no matter who I'm in the room with, who I was in the room with, I'm always the same to everyone!
Chris: Yes!
Swiss: And I expect the same from people. I also don't like it when people come up to me and are particularly nice and I realize that they're only so nice because I'm THAT person. And then the next minute I realize how disgusting they are to someone else who they feel they don't have to be nice to. That turns me off!
Chris: That’s awful, right?! If you're at such a level, this sentence sounds really disgusting now, but it's just like that, if you're at such a level as we are, that you're such a… I hate the word star, but you know what I mean… that you've suddenly arrived there and you realize how people are crawling up your ass, carrying everything after you, kicking the others next to you—
Swiss: Yes! And that’s—
Chris: —and those who work in that club and clean up—
Swiss: —Hell yeah!
Chris: —and put the jars away and are thinking “Fuck you, dude!” And I know what that means! I've cleaned up in clubs myself and stood behind the bar and aaahhhh.... Anyway, I just interrupted you, sorry!
Swiss: No, I—
Chris: —It really triggers me!
Swiss: Absolutely! Hey, bro, I delivered pizzas, worked in the warehouse, I really… I can only say that when I think back, I worked at the cheese and sausage counter when I was 16 at Spar (German supermarket back then). Do you know how disgusting people sometimes treated you there? That wasn't always easy for me either, because I had a short fuse and then I was really… yes… there were a lot of arguments with my bosses because, "You can't talk like that!" and so on. But some people are so disgusting to you when they think, "I can do that without any problems!" And I just can't respect something like that, because you can always recognize a person by the way they behave towards someone you don't have to be nice to. And I think, you know, I don't care what faith you have! I don't care who you love, who you have sex with, what you want to be called and so on. I can even—we can disagree on certain political issues! Do you know what I mean?
Chris: Absolutely!
Swiss: But I want to know that when I'm sitting with you, I'm sitting with a nice and empathetic person with whom I like to share my things and who likes to share his things with me. I have such friends! I just have friendships in certain circles that are involved in a certain foreign organization that I can't relate to at all. And as soon as we talk about it, there's a fight! We've simply learned over the years that we don't do that. I know I can call this person at 4 a.m. and say "Bro, I need your help with this, this and this!" and I know he'll be there! That's always very, very important to me and the people who are also there in those situations, where it's not popular to help you. Do you understand what I mean?
Chris: The thing is—yes of course, I understand exactly what you mean and one thing with what you say, where you exclude certain things—I've also learned for example, precisely because we're traveling so internationally, I've learned to some extent that you can be really good with certain cultural things… so you can get on really well with people and you can go through thick and thin and you know that people will help you out of problems and you will help them out of problems, but you have to leave certain things out because you will never get on the same page with them. That's the case with Americans in particular; I have a lot of friends there, and some of them are just so rooted in certain beliefs like religious, political, death penalty—
Swiss: Also very ignorant, when you are honest.
Chris: —Partly very ego-related. Or also through our tours in Russia, of course we're not playing in Russia at the moment, but back then—
Swiss: Is it the story… didn’t you say you're playing on Putin's birthday? (That’s a joke!)
Chris: I told you that privately because—
Swiss: Ah oh, ok, that was…
Chris: —But that wasn’t the birthday, that was for the victory of his election!
Swiss: Ah, yes, right!
*Chris is laughing*
Swiss: Sorry!
Chris: But that's something I've learned for example, that you’re not allowed to broach the subject of homophobia with Russians who you think are totally open! You'll never come to an agreement with them, even though you think they're cool with it. But that's just how they grew up, that's how they're shaped. I can argue with them for as long as I want, they're still homophobic afterwards! But I'm just thinking about something we've already talked about, about this stepping down and hunching up and stuff like that; I've had the good fortune to get to know some of the really big ones over the years. And the really big ones, I've realized, are either total assholes, and I don't want to mention any names because I've been really disappointed by this "meet your idols" thing—
Swiss: Oh come on, please say one! I also will say one of my “meet your idols” disappointments. Say one but who is really an asshole, that has really hurt you.
Chris: Ok, I'll tell you a bad and a good thing! Bad things happened many years ago, but there is one, for me they were superstars—a glam rock band from Finland called Hanoi Rocks, with the singer Michael Monroe. It's just really nice glam rock and back then, 20 years ago, I was supporting them with my band. And we weren't allowed to be backstage with them. We simply were not allowed to be there. And then we had to go through—that was at the Grünspan (venue in Hamburg St. Pauli) and that was a really big hall for us back then and you had to go through the backstage to get to the stage. We weren't allowed to do that and had to go through the audience. And that was a “meet your idols” moment that was heavy, but I… Do you want to briefly tell me about a negative moment, before I go to the good part?
Swiss: No, tell me about it.
Chris: Ok, we've been on tour twice now, for the Swiss fans who don't know, we've been on tour with Iron Maiden twice. Once last year and once the year before. We have supported them in over 20 countries, in football stadiums between 20k and 60k people. Really, really awesome. And they invited us! We met the most humble, nicest, and coolest guys there. The youngest is now 67, the oldest is 71, the band has been around for almost 50 years, and they have achieved EVERYTHING! And yet they are just really, really cool. And I recently stumbled across an interview that was sent to me by our record company, there was Bruce Dickinson, the singer of Iron Maiden, in an interview on WDR (German TV station), Thomas Rheinberg as the interviewer—thank you very much, Thomas, for this recording! And now I must briefly show you what he says about us! And that makes my heart open! I think I need to hear this 100 times because it gives me goosebumps! Pay attention, I'll play it for you:
https://www.facebook.com/reel/396918892974378
Swiss: Hey, he sounds so true! That's one thing, I don't know if we've ever spoke about it, being a superstar, being a star, has nothing to do with being famous!
Chris: Nope!
Swiss: I know… you know these people in our neighborhood, we've gotten to know each other over the years. People who are just superstars in a circle of people who know them. So for example, he'll be like, "Hey, this guy is a legend on the street!" or something, but they really exist! These guys and these women who just have such an aura and such an impact on their circle of people—they don't have to be famous and they don't have to be rich or successful! But everyone listens when they talk and everyone loves them! He sounds like that to me too! A superstar because he's also a superstar as a person and I just think that when people suck, success just makes them even shittier, you know?
Chris: Yes! That's just, you have a guy like that, you have Bruce… I have to tell you one to two anecdotes: You never really see Bruce much! Because he arrives relatively shortly before the show, someone does the soundcheck for him because he's no longer in the mood for it after so many years, and he does interviews all day long, gives motivational training speeches, the guy has an airline for cargo flights, he is a pilot who has his own Iron Maiden plane—a jumbo jet that he has flown for years—the guy was an Olympic level fencer and so on. So, a guy like that! And the first time I saw him, on the first tour, he was trying to fix a door backstage! You're like, "Okay?" I walked past, "Ey, by the way I'm Chris from Lord of the Lost" and he said, "Yeah good to see you, have a great show, I'm Bruce!" I said, "Yeah I know who you are!"—"Yeah I’ve got to repair this fucking door!" And, you know, that guy is Bruce Dickinson! If he wants a new door, all he has to do is whistle and five people will crochet a door for him! The second time was a few weeks later, when we were in the catering area and we are rarely seen there. He came in there, the coffee machine wasn't working, so he tried to dismantle it and repair it! You know, a guy like that, just a guy who gets involved, and to close the topic, this whole Iron Maiden thing, it's a family business; his son was on stage as stage management and the daughter of Steve Harris, the bassist and band founder, was in the office for the production. They have a crew where some people have been working for 30 years and I'm grateful to have experienced that and to have met real role models! Not necessarily musically but just knowing that you can get up there without being a total asshole! That's inspiring!
*Swiss agrees* And I now want to hear the “never meet your idols” story from you!
Swiss: Aaah, I have some really shitty bands… so what I actually… basically, what happens to me often is at festivals where you play and then you see bands backstage that have some great songs that you think are cool—
Chris: Revolverheld!
Swiss: For example! You realize what gray mice they are! I always think that we as a group are of course very loud and there are a lot of people and stuff like that, and we always stand out a lot at these festivals. And sometimes you think, "Hey, dude, they're just really boring! What a disappointment!" And then there is for example, I remember one thing, at the beginning we were at Circus Halligalli (former German late night show) and there we had—
Chris: Right!
Swiss: —and there were Blur—
Chris: You told me about that!
Swiss: —and Blur played there. Hey bro and they were so shitty! That's just how they were, they didn't feel like doing anything. Sat backstage, were reading a book and it was somehow very… you just didn't have the feeling of warm-hearted people! Sure, you can't always be nice, you know that yourself, you have a bad day and sometimes at the end of the day you say "Maybe I could have been a little nicer…" when he wanted to take a photo and I said no bro and I walked away. That wasn't so cool somehow! Dumb! That annoys me because every person who celebrates you, you like to take the time and you like to take a photo because it's also something beautiful.
Chris: Can I jump in very quickly? I was—that’s exactly the thing, you can also super politely say as a star that it’s currently not possible. In 2018 or 19, I was at a Nine Inch Nails concert at the Spandau Citadel in Berlin, and there was the singer of Behemoth. That’s a—I don’t know if you know them, they make black metal—
Swiss: Yes, the name rings a bell.
Chris: Musically, I can’t actually listen to it much, but the dude is an incredible inspiration. He works out a lot, he beat cancer, he’s a guy who does a thousand things. And his Instagram is super inspiring. He’s the kind of guy who captures you through his personality.
Swiss: A man of action, you mean!
Chris: Exactly.
Swiss: Which you like.
Chris: Exactly. Someone who greatly inspired me, and I recognised him there and went up to him and said, “Aren’t you Nergal” and, “Can I take a photo with you?” and then he said, “Bro, I’m really sorry, I’m here privately today with an acquaintance, it would be totally cool if you’d understand that we don’t do that today, but when we meet the next time I promise you, we will do that!” I’m like, “Okay, all good.” The year before last year in summer, we played an immense open air [concert] at a festival in France on the Atlantic coast. Behemoth were on one stage at the same time as we were on the other stage, late in the evening. We did make up; they did make up. Same shuttle to the stage. I’m like, in front of the Shuttle, “Nergal? By the way I’m Chris.” Him, “Yes, yes, I know, from Lord of the Lost!” I’m like, “We already met. Back then, at the Nine Inch Nails concert in Berlin.” He’s like, “And you asked for a photograph!”
Swiss: Hehehe.
Chris: “And I told you we’ll do that later!” And I’m like, “You remember that?” He’s like, “Of course,” and then we took the photo.
Swiss: Awesome.
Chris: Alright. That’s just a quick intermezzo. Sorry.
Swiss: Yes, totally. No, that’s what I mean. So, I—there are just… there are awesome people and there are non-awesome people.
Chris: Yes.
Swiss: And when awesome people are successful, then they turn it into something even better and most of the time it brings something even better out of them, and makes them even more beautiful and even nicer and then there are people that are just asshats (the word “Kackvögel” would translate to “poop birds”) and the success makes them even more asshat-y most of the time, you know? And—
Chris: *Chuckles* Beautiful.
Swiss: It just IS like that. And, I don’t know. And I… when I think about what kinds of actions we do sometimes that are un-starlike, you understand? And for example, sometimes I go to Finkenwerder (a district of Hamburg that’s at the southern shore of the river Elbe) with my daughter on the ferry. I pick her up then, on Saturdays there is always a market there, and then she eats a sausage there and we buy some apples from the Altes Land (“Old Land”, a part of reclaimed marshland in Hamburg and Lower Saxony that is known for its fruit, mainly apples) and then we go back again, and then we have spent the morning.
Chris: Yep.
Swiss: And then the other day, there were two boys and then— bro, like Atzen-like[4] guys, you know? And I pass by, they greet me, I greet them back. And then they come—we got off at Ovelgönne (a municipality of Wesermarsch in Lower Saxony), them too, and then like, “Dude, you’re Swiss, aren’t you?” I’m like, “Yes” and he’s like, “Wild that you’re just going by ferry here!” And I’m like—
Chris: Not with a helicopter!
Swiss: Yes, and I’m like, “Why is that wild?” And then he’s like, “Yeah, I wouldn’t have expected you to just do that” and I’m thinking, like, “Yes bro. I just do EVERYTHING. I go by tram, I go by train, I walk around, it is so—of course it’s the privilege of not being a rap star who has lots of small kiddies flocking around them, no matter where they buy a bread roll, but—
Chris: That’s like Keanu Reeves who still goes by tram in New York! *laughs*
Swiss: Yes, and I—ey, I have to say, I—right? The people are so irritated sometimes by how… normal you live, like, you know? Well, then I always think, “Huh, how am I supposed to live? What do you expect?”
Chris: Yeah.
Swiss: That is so—Yes bro, I’m taking a dump in the morning, just like you, believe me, I’m having a bad day sometimes, I am—
Chris: (in a posh tone) Only my toilet is made of gold.
Swiss: Yes!
Chris: *Laughs*
Swiss: Like, you know what I mean? At my place there are faucets that directly draw rose water… I’m always thinking, “Man, that’s just… that’s all just not what matters, and there we are at the point again of people just being nice because you kinda have money or because you are successful or whatever. Hey, then they have already disqualified themselves for me. And that’s why I love—
Chris: But have you at some point—when you maybe noticed it afterwards because you were in a bad mood or had a bad day or something, someone asked you for a photograph or an autograph and you reacted shitty even though you didn’t want to, just because it wasn’t your day, and afterwards you thought, “Shit, I would have wished to have been different?”
Swiss: Well, fundamentally, if you ask me respectfully, I always take a photo. You know? I always look really shitty and I’m annoyed by that, and I think like, “Whoa” and… but what I don’t like that much, and what I recently don’t allow anymore, are these punks sometimes, that are like “*yelling* Now come here, come, we’ll also take a photo together now!” And then you think—
Chris: It’s that you belong to them, exactly. “You are my star.”
Swiss: This! And then, “It took us three hours to get here for you, we have been at six concerts already and we’re always buying merch too” and then I think, “Yes bro, and still, I’m not your bitch.” You know? “And if you want to take a photo with me, you can ask me like a human being, and not like a donkey that you call over, because you bought concert tickets. Then please don’t come anymore.” You understand?
Chris: Yes.
Swiss: These are things that I don’t like and there I react—recently it happened to me, I was also a bit grumpy there, they were acquaintances of an acquaintance of mine, at the end I thought “Fuck it,” I didn’t want to be impolite towards my colleague.
Chris: But one is still just a human being! Because in that moment—there we are at the topic of dehumanising—they dehumanise you, as well.
Swiss: Exactly! Exactly.
Chris: Also, because they turn you into THEIR star, their property, and there we are at this—it’s a filter that only goes in one direction; you are much closer to them than they to you, because you—as a singer who also speaks—speaks to them, and you also speak to their hearts, because they feel like you are very close to them, because you’ve been touching them for years.
Swiss: Yes, yes, it’s sending in one direction.
Chris: Partially you can’t—yes, exactly. Partially you can’t blame them for it, but still it’s annoying, and sometimes one can’t help but to be a human as well and to draw the boundaries. I know.
Swiss: Yeeeah, it is so—
Chris: It’s that way with me—I don’t have any problem, regardless of where I get approached, and even though I found a way to also politely say no sometimes, as experienced through Nergal *chuckles* at the Nine Inch Nails concert, but no matter where, I can always be approached except for when I am, I don’t know, I’m out with my son—
Swiss: Yeah.
Chris: —or I’m sitting there eating in a restaurant or I’m standing at the urinal and have my dick in my hand—
Swiss: Mhm.
Chris: —when someone then stands next to me and says, “Can you give me an autograph?”—
Swiss: Then you say, “Yes, but hold it for a second!”
Chris: No, then I just turn to the left or the right where he’s standing the next time, saying, “Here.” This.
Swiss: Mhm, yes.
Chris: But apart from that, yeah. These are the kind of moments where it doesn’t work for me. Like… but apart from that, always, actually.
Swiss: Yes, I even do—hey, even if you approach me, I’m with my daughter and someone asks, “Excuse me, I don’t want to be rude, do you think we could quickly take a photo?” Even then I am like this, “Yes, okay, let’s quickly do it.” But it’s just… yeah, like with everything, the manner. Just treat me like a human being, and—
Chris: Treat yourself—treat others like you would find it cool yourself—
Swiss: Yes, be it—
Chris: —even as a private person.
Swiss: Yes, let—
Chris: You aren’t, just because you are a bit famous, or I, it doesn’t mean that we don’t have feelings, the same as every private person, as well!
Swiss: Yes! And that is exactly like on the internet. So—whoa, I’m seeing, is the hour already up now?
Chris: No, a bit [more]—yeah, two, three minutes, five minutes! Come, go on!
Swiss: Yeah, it—do you understand? It’s exactly the same on the internet. So, especially we who—bro, some people seem to have only us as their topic and there is always something we do wrong and which they don’t like…
Chris: Yes, of course.
Swiss: And I always think, “Look how you attack us as a pack, what kinds of things you’re saying, what kinds of insults you’re letting cross your lips, how you’re treating us…” Look, we are seasoned men, you understand? I have endured a whole different kind of stressful situations in my life, right? I’m sitting there with a calm pulse, reading that and maybe have the urge to hit someone, but I am not broken by it.
Chris: *Chuckles* Yes.
Swiss: BUT they’re also doing that with sensitive young people, they’re treating [them] like that, and then at the end of the day everybody is surprised when some people take their own lives because they can’t cope with it.
Chris: Yes.
Swiss: And then I’m always thinking, humans in a pack are nasty anyway, and humans in a pack, because they have the feeling, “Oh, that person is famous, we can all kick them because that’s official, they made a mistake”—
Chris: This Drachenlord[4] thphenomenon, right?
Swiss: Exactly! And that is like, “Hey, we have found someone who has made a mistake and we can chase them through the digital village with a pitchfork. And kick them ad nauseam.” And I always think, with these people as well, again we are at—look, how can you let yourself go that much? How can you disconnect from being human that much? How can you dehumanise yourself that much? How can you dehumanise ME that much? You understand?
Chris: Yes.
Swiss: At the end of the day, I am a living being too. I have fears, I have sorrows, I make mistakes, I… am sad sometimes, am happy sometimes, and… you can—it has nothing to do with you not being allowed to criticize. But you can find a humane way to approach me with that. And that’s where you notice that many people, especially in this time, because they are so frustrated, only need a projection screen, a garbage bin that they can shit into with their garbage that they can’t get rid of. And that is so infamous and that is so… disgusting, right? And by now I’m also really at a point where I don’t reply to any of them. Because I don’t talk to them. I just don’t talk to—
Chris: Because these things are not—except if it’s TOO entertaining sometimes, I sometimes can’t hold back, because sometimes internet hate is so entertaining too, that I am doing it out of my own voyeurism, but I don’t reply seriously anymore.
Swiss: I don’t do it anymore at all, dude. I don’t do that to myself. Because it’s simply… yeah. It is… trolls should not be fed and I notice that despite everything, it does something to my energy with these—
Chris: Yes, of course.
Swiss: —negative people, and… you know? One has one’s people around oneself, in the optimal case, one’s circle of people, and I have very critical people around me too, you know?
Chris: Yes.
Swiss: So, [those] who aren’t in any case, like, “Woow, awesome, you took a dump, oh cool, that smells so nice” with everything that I do—
Chris: *Laughs*
Swiss: —you know? But people where I sometimes have the feeling, for example with Maddin (Martin, who is involved in Swiss’ management), when I show things to Maddin, I sometimes feel like, “Bro, you are terribly critical now dude,” like...You know?
Chris: Yes.
Swiss: And in hindsight that is cool though! Because we discuss it and sometimes we reach a consensus, sometimes we don’t, but we’re discussing on a respectful level, and his opinion is important to me. You know? Just as Pat’s opinion is important to me, regarding things.
Chris: Yeah.
Swiss: And then I have talked to these people and in the end I’m getting to a conclusion. But because someone on the internet tells me, “Eew, that”—I don’t know. It’s the same with our new song again. It’s a song about a…
Chris: “Sie liebt einen anderen” (“She loves another [man]”)?
Swiss: Exactly, violent relationship that might end in a murder.
Chris: Yes.
Swiss: Hey, and the people are writing in response to it as if I had fuelled femicides! And I’m thinking, “People”—
Chris: Well the thing is, they assume that everything has to be autobiographical.
Swiss: No, and why are you all so sensitive? You know? I think Dave Chapelle said that in his whatever, “Why are you all so sensitive?” Dude, and especially with things that don’t even affect you! And at the end of the day folks, we are artists,and first and foremost we have a right to make art, and art has to be allowed to move into different situations, it has to be allowed to surf at edges, it has to be able to work with difficult topics, and it has to take perspectives that might be uncomfortable, but that is what art is there for! And people pretend—
Chris: But that is interesting, that— I don’t know, the director of a horror movie, there nobody assumes them to be a mass murderer or a serial killer, but as a musician, if you’re singing about something, you can’t just paint pictures or tell stories, but it has to be a mirror of your soul without a doubt! *laughs*
Swiss: Exactly! And of course it’s also always about judging someone for it. You understand?
Chris: Of course.
Swiss: And to say, “You are a bad person because you do that, how dare you?” And I think, “Folks, the freedom of art is a very, very valuable asset,” and I think first we should all get to a point where we actually look into the songs, and, well, you know? In school you did text interpretations, right?
Chris: Yeah, not everyone!
Swiss: No! Alright, exactly, but in the optimal case you had text interpretations and think about what actually is the conjecture of this text? And art that just boringly babbles about facts—well, you understand? Like, you can make a song about violence in a relationship by saying, “And that is wrong, and this and that” and it’s just boring, or you can—
Chris: Or you’re painting a picture, from first-person view.
Swiss: Exactly! You open this situation and leave the listener restless and baffled with that. And bring—
Chris: At this point I very quickly want to recommend two songs to the people, especially since we talked about internet hate earlier. For one—your fans will know it—your solo song “In Der Tiefe” (“In The Deep”)—or is it called “In Den Tiefen” (“In The Depths”)?
Swiss: “In Der Tiefe”, exactly.
Chris: “In Der Tiefe”. Exactly. Which I also produced, by the way, exactly, one of the few rap songs by you, but I want to recommend it to the Lord of the Lost fans, check out “In Der Tiefe” by Swiss, that is an approximately ten minute long horror movie for the ears that’s extremely interesting, and for the Swiss fans who don’t know it, we made a song with Lord of the Lost that is called “Leave Your Hate In The Comments.”
Swiss: Yes.
Chris: Because we—and also with the worst, most tasteless video, intentionally, that we ever did because we thought—
Swiss: Very good song, too.
Chris: —these people who are hating on the internet all the time, they just want attention. We thought we’ll give them an extra stage, do an extra music video and a song where their stage is actually the comment section under this video, and a funny cross link here is also that my son Mika screamed a “Fuck all y’all!” really nineties-like rap-like, where Wizzy (Swiss’ DJ Da Wizard) in turn scratched the sample and did vinyl cuts that are also in the song. So there we also have the link between Swiss and Lord of the Lost, so—
Swiss: Yes!
Chris: “Leave Your Hate In The Comments,” Lord of the Lost, and “In Der Tiefe,” Swiss, I’ll put that in the stories again, for you to check out.
Swiss: Yes, one really has to say, our gangs are very connected to each other and that is also something very beautiful.
Chris: Yup.
Swiss: And I think finally we have to say, to end this a bit nastily too, all these people have to be aware that we live in their heads rent free, and that at the end of the day it is always easy to bleat and to nag about other people, it is difficult to get something going by yourself and to expose yourself to that, right?
Chris: Exactly! “Try to walk in my shoes” dude! Like...
Swiss: Yes! This! And that’s what I sometimes think when people… are saying and telling me certain things and make demands, I think, “Bro, walk in my shoes for a day.”
Chris: Yes!
Swiss: “And I’m very curious how you handle that.” And—they don’t have to do that, it’s okay—
Chris: That was my response—sorry, yes [go on]?
Swiss: Of course we get handsomely paid for it too, right? For being at that point. *Laughs* But at the end of the day, being human means that regardless of where, and even if it’s the internet and you have the feeling not to be able to be held responsible for it, that you stay human. That you stay decent—
Chris: I will give two really nasty teasers now and things that I initially wanted to say, but I will tell them next time, which is on one hand that I found out with Mika that it’s totally interesting to try to translate Eminem lyrics that are rapped way too fast anyway, and that consist of very short English words, into German and then to rap at the same speed. I will present that to you next time—
Swiss: Very good.
Chris: —and maybe you will imitate it better than me then, and I wanted to say something that I have never said yet, while we are on the topic of meeting stars. A long time ago, when Lord of the Lost weren’t even liquid yet, I had a physical fight at a festival with Johannes Strate of Revolverheld (German band)—
Swiss: NO!
Chris: —and he won’t remember it and I won’t say how and when now, because that will be told in episode 6.
Swiss: Oh, DUDE!
Chris: *Laughs*
Swiss: That—let’s stop the recording, I’m—
Chris: Yeah!
Swiss: So, you had a fight with Johannes Strate? Oh, bro,
Chris: I’ll tell—
Swiss: I don’t want to say that’s pretty gangsta, but okay.
Chris: I’ll tell you next time.
Swiss: Tell me next time. Hey. Chris, I hope my rec—
Chris: And he won’t know anymore.
Swiss: I hope my recording went well, I’ll immediately send it to you.
Chris: Yes, send it over, I’ll cut it this very night, then I can go to the piste tomorrow.
Swiss: Apart from that, folks… be nice to one another and…
Chris: Yes.
Swiss: …be respectful towards one another, that is the most important thing, I think. And… Chris: I wish you a nice vacation, and… bro.
Chris: Thanks, thanks.
Swiss: I’m kissing you.
Chris: And we will hear each other in two weeks, I am in Paris then I think, or something. And you’re in Hamburg still?
Swiss: Maybe I’ll still be in Hamburg.
Chris: Or also on tour already?
Swiss: I don’t know maybe I’ll just fly somewhere to also be able to flex.
Chris: Until later.
Swiss: Until then, ciao, ciao.
[1]: 8kids - Wikipedia
[4]: “Atze” (plural: “Atzen”) is a slang term originally used in the Berlin rap scene for a friend or (big) brother, but got coined by a hip hop and party Schlager duo called “Die Atzen” to describe a certain kind of aesthetic and culture.
[5]: “Drachenlord” (“Dragon Lord”) is a German streamer who got famous for getting cyber-bullied to a point where he got doxxed multiple times in real life, police were called on both sides, sometimes multiple times a day. Fake news was spread about him, even accusing him of being responsible for terrorist attacks, which was then used by media in different countries, spreading his picture as the perpetrator without fact-checking. He attacked haters on multiple instances, verbally and physically, even throwing objects like bricks, due to the constant emotional stress. He is virtually unable to rent an apartment, because landlords won’t accept him due to his questionable fame.
Translation: Margit Güttersberger, Elisabeth «Kurojuki» Czermack, Jeany Fischer, Jari Witt
Proofreading: Helen Forsyth